to think this class system only exists on MN?

[GildedWingsOfGrace]

All the time I hear "middle class" bashing on here.

Or "working class" guilt. Only on MN.

I wouldn't have a clue what class I am or what class my friends are, or the people I work with are.

It doesn't even occur to me, and I never hear it mentioned in day to day life

Ruby- I agree that class isn't as obvious in northern Ireland, however, I don't think poverty is nearly as widespread or as obvious as it is in scotland. There are pockets in NI, but when I grew up there in the nineties, none of my friends were poor or lived in social housing.

'underclass' is just a term for the people the bottom of society in terms of social and economic capital, people without an income are clearly going to be at the bottom in terms of income.
It's not synonymous with a lack of morals

mrsjay

I'm not sure. I find it very interesting, if I'd ever done a history degree that would be what I'd have done my dissertation on (I appreciate it's odd to have "what if" dissertations!), because the class system is fascinating in an awful way.

Apparently social mobility is at an all time low now. Grants this is probably since records began in the early 20th century. I imagine it has been lower still in the more distant past.

The the term underclass is not new (nor is it pleasant) and in the main it appears to be being used with reference to the same group of people as it was historically. Only difference now is these people don't live in slums and the general public doesn't in the main, turn a blind eye to starving children. Look at the slum clearances in London. I saw a map recently which showed which class of people lived where (colour coded) at the turn of the last century. The most wealthy in the next street over from people living in streets with the kind of deprivation modern Britain does not have (thankfully). Slums were only cleared after WW2, finally clearer anyway. We've all heard the stories about the evacuees sent from the cities to the country side not being able to use knives and forks,not toilet trained etc. They came from the slums. People looking after them saw a side of life they didn't even know existed.

Middle class people can be poor as well. If you subscribe to the notion of class, it's a state of mind, attitudes, what you aspire to and so on. It doesn't concern wealth. If a 'working class' person suddenly wins millions on the lottery does that mean that they change social class overnight? What if a 'middle class' person gives up a highly paid career for a low paid job that is far more satisfying?

Underclass just makes me think of untermensch.
Which makes me want to weep a little. Mind you, so does a lot of this thread.

I don't want to think of people being classified, it's just crass, outmoded and a bit shit. I think only the embarrassingly aspirational give a shit anyway.

Inverse snobbery such as 'posh' politicians can't possibly know how 'ordinary' people live... that kind of crap is everywhere.

But it's not crap. I am just about lower middle class, lots of working class mates, from a fairly rough Lancashire town. Delivering leaflets round the estates there as a holiday job was a complete eye-opener for me. I had no idea people lived with those appalling levels of deprivation.

Are you seriously saying that our Eton-educated, private-income, nanny-raised cabinet would know all about living like that? I would bet everything I own that they don't.

greenbananas I agree and I also think my DS does this and probably comes across as a bit gauche silly with anyone but his mates when he does it. I dropped him at the airport in the summer for a mass descent on a ghastly infamous resort. He met up with about 20 chums in the queue all behaving like 18 year old boys amongst 100s of others. TBF 20 public school boys stuck out like a sore thumb and God knows what the other 200 thought. Mind you when they got there they teamed up with the marlborough faction, Stowe faction, St Pauls faction, etc --and thought they were street because they come from London.

On that note I went to a nearby shopping centre and what I do love about london is the fact that all the different groups exist rather comfortably side by side. There were: afro carribean's, black africans, antipodeans, south africans, indian asians, chinese asians, white UC, white wC, etc, etc, all co-existing and say excuse me, sorry love, all with a smile and all prepared to exchange a pleasantry in the queues.

And DS deigned to have a coffee with me and like any mum from any part of the world I thought goodness you have grown up and I love you.

Not all of the cabinet is eton educated and some of it live round the corner from me where people of all races, cultures, classes and denominations live cheek by jowl.

onessleep

I suggest you read an A level Sociology text book, because if you are right then our ed system is teaching our dc incorrectly.
The underclass are those that don't work, yes often by choice but not always.
To suggest that they are typical of the people you describe is awful.

Modern- lots of people don't live in extreme poverty and it doesn't mean they all don't know it exists.

Actually you used the term underclass. I said a lower class. You chose to judge decent people. May I suggest you read what I wrote. Or is that too much for you?

sociological theory doesnt have the last word on class definitions
(although it will tend to have the best thought out and useful
definitions:o )
Really it's a bit silly to argue about who is and isnt underclass without first agreeing on what we mean by the term, clearly different people use it to mean different things!

Alis

I have studied this briefly in the past, just as an interest.
Weren't the poorest areas marked black on the map?
There are similarities to the underclass of today and if I can remember correctly many were reported as salt of the earth type, with sense of community, and whilst lacked manners were responsible citizens.
I know many of the women had to turn to prostitution to feed their children and many of the menfolk were Hawkers and petty thieves.
This to me is a completely different intent to those on Jeremy Kyle.

But but, what if you go to Uni but don't go into a profession? What if you earn as you learn and end up as a professional? Like Legal Execs etc?

I think to be absolutely honest all I want for myself, my husband and my children is that we are not wankers. Nor do we mix with people who label and classify. Ugh.

Hitler used the term untermensch. For the Jews and the Russians.
Not a label I think we should be resurrecting?

Lizzylou

Your attitude is typical wc because if you were mc you would be bothered.

Just kidding
I have no idea what class I am. A mix of uc, wc, and mc, I think.

Morethan

Yes that's the map! I've also read an old book on the slums in Portsmouth which was very interesting.

I wasn't agreeing with the "Jeremy Kyle" comment more mentioning there have always been people who have been considered to be the "underclass" due to deprivation etc. Lived hard lives then and I don't doubt some live similarly hard lives in this day and age. Sad all around really.

Yes, I have heard his accent described as mockney.

Morethan, how very darebyou! I will get my butler to flog you with the ancestral whip

To be honest I would rather be wc than mc any day if I belueved in all that shite.

Non wanker will do me

Lizzy

Being serious, I had no idea that was a term Hitler used, it really is in the dcs text books. Definitely AQA.
I feel like writing and complaining to the publishers now.
I can also see why others are angry with the term.
If used correctly though without prejudice or malice to describe a class of people, it would be ok. But even here it seems that there is discrepancy in the meaning.

Yup, Guy Ritchie, Mick Jagger, Lily Allen....they all do it.

No worries Morethan, untermensch means subhuman, not underclass. I was taking a bit of dramatic licence to prove my point.
Still, it's a slippery slope eh?

Lily Allens mockney accent in her singing voice really grates on me - she went to Bedales ffs....
wheras in a real singing voice like Adele's there is no audible accent at all.