To not want my 2 year old to be shouted at by MIL

[lilithtime]

Sorry if this ends up a bit long. I usually get on pretty well with my MIL. She's a good person and has had a lot to deal with and I know she does do her best. She and FIL are the legal guardians of two of BIL's children as he is frankly useless and their mum was neglectful so they have lived with IL's since the ages of 5 and 6. They are now 12 and 14.

MIL is a shouter and a smacker I have never felt comfortable with the way she screams and shouts at them, particularly the youngest, who is a girl. She gets on much better with the boy and he gets away with murder but the girl has it much tougher. All of his family have noticed how she is treated compared to the other grandkids but nobody says anything to MIL.

I've tried to be sympathetic and as I have a 12 yr old DD as well I have talked with MIL about different strategies to deal with pre teen moods etc and what has worked with me and she has opened up to me a bit about how tough she finds it. A few months ago she told me that she had hit DNiece across the face when she gave her some attitude. I was shocked and expressed that I thought that was wrong.

DH is one of 3 boys and his mum has always parented like that and he says she has mellowed over the years if anything. His brothers are both a waste of space, both have been in prison and are a constant source of stress to her. The dad of the kids has two more kids and is abusive to his partner so MIL looks after the younger ones a lot for DIL as she feels guilty for his behaviour so she has her hands full.

We live 30 miles away and MIL has looked after DS (2.4) one day a week since he was a baby. DS is a handful for me but has always been better behaved for his nan. He went through a phase of hitting and I tried a few ways of dealing with it, namely the naughty step and being firm with saying NO and quickly realised that he was too young as it just didn't work. He refuses to say sorry and it just ends up a battle so I now either ignore or distract him, which defuses it quicker.

DS is very tall for his age and looks like a 4 year old and his language is quite good so he looks capable of understanding more than he actually does.

Last week I arrived to pick DS up at tea time and we had an incident that has upset me and caused all sorts of issues and I really need to know if IABU.

DS started playing up as soon as I got there and I'd only been there 10 minutes when he picked up a handful of gravel (we were sat in the garden) and chucked it. I told him not to and would normally have then distracted him but MIL told me 'This is how we deal with this' then immediately raised her voice and got down in his face and told him not to do it again. Of course DS then did it again straight away. MIL went mad and really shouted at him and then dragged him into the house to sit in the corner. She then came back out and DS followed, crying and having a tantrum then he proceeded to do it again with the gravel. She really screamed at him and dragged him back in the house again. I just sat there frozen. My ex was abusive and really hate shouting and screaming like that. DS was hysterical and ended up sobbing into the sofa as I was just sat there like an idiot not knowing what to do.

We left just after that and I haven't spoken to MIL since. Every time I have thought of taking DS again I feel really anxious and I just don't know what to do about it. He was due to go today and I should have just lied to DH and said he had a temp or something but I stupidly told him the truth and we have now fallen out. I have texted MIL and told her he isn't feeling well.

We are having a few issues in our marriage recently and this is not a good time for this to come up. Am I being U and / or precious to not want my toddler to be shouted at like that? And what the hell do I do?

Thank you if you managed to read all that. Any advice or perspectives appreciated.

YANBU and im sorry but i would be making other childcare arrangements (if this is a childcare thing) and not allowing MIL to be on her own with DS.

She sounds awful. Violent and aggressive. Even the people on here who say they do smack would not be smacking a 12 year old anywhere let alone across the face. I wouldn't want my children anywhere near her.

I would tell her why too.

She sounds a delight?? I would not let my child anywhere near her and if your DH cannot see the harm she could do to his child, his upbringing must have tainted his view.

Is it possible to find other child care?

This woman has a lot on her plate, you shouldn't be leaving your ds there - first because she doesn't parent in the way you would and second because she does so much looking after of everyone else's kids all the time. It's too much.

I agree that your MIL isn't the best person to look after your DS as she seems to be stretched to the limit but how would you have disciplined him? If he continued to throw the gravel after being told off and sent to the naughty corner then maybe he needs you to be stricter with him too, although I agree that smacking and shouting isn't the way to go.

What cakebar said. She doesn't sound like she has any patience left and tbh I can see why (not your ds but having to bring up a second generation of kids).

YANBU. My mum parents like that. When DS was born, SS (involved cos I had antenatal mental issues) asked us to promise that we weren't going to let her look after DS alone, as they'd have viewed that as a child protection issue. So, I'm afraid I agree that you need some new childcare.

Your MiL should not be looking after any children, find other care arrangements,

If you continue contact do it in a neutral environment, with exit strategies in place,

Shouting should be left for warning of danger(child running into roads)

Shouting at children never works, it just raises the tolerance levels.

Yanbu
Sounds like she needs your help rather than having another child to deal with (all be it the only one she grand parents rather then parents!).
I wouldn't leave ds there again, could you offer to help out more? Take the daughter a bit more, or your BIL's kids? If she tries to 'helpfully' step in again id be firmly saying 'no, I deal with it like this'. If she still over rides you then I'd be backing away from contact

YANBU to find alternative childcare, at the very least your views on what is acceptable are massively different.

I would ask at what point you think he does need to be disciplined rather than distracted? as personally by 2.4 all of mine have understood enough to know it was wrong and not to do it again. They also had to say sorry (whether they wanted to/ understood / or not).

I have been there too OP, its horrible isn't it? you just freeze not knowing how to react.

I would tell your DH and make no apology of how angry you are.

You should not be leaving your child with her, she sounds like she cannot cope at all. Also, are any family members taking steps to protect your niece? If it isn't a safe environment for your child it isn't ok for any other child either.

I hope DNiece confides in someone outside of the family. Not only is MiL being abusive, she is being stupid not to take on board how these behaviours might be seen by others - your reaction should be giving her a big clue. What on earth is your DH thinking?

Thank you for the replies. I agree she does have a lot on her plate and I do want to help her. It has always bothered me to see how DN is treated and I have always felt so helpless. She is cared for and has a much better life with M and FIL than she had with her mum but she always seems so sad. When I had been with DH for about 6 months she sat on my knee and whispered that she wished I was her mum. Just about broke my heart.

I have tried so many times to invite DN to either visit, go to places with us or stay over and MIL has always said no. We have been together 5 years. Over the last six months I have really tried to get her talking about DN under the guise of talking about my own DD. At one point I did say to her that she is really harsh on DN and I think it did get through to her as she seemed to be a bit kinder to her after that, until she told me about hitting her a couple of months ago. I also said how sad it was for DN that she didn't have a mum who was there for her and how hard that must be for her. DN incidentally is one of the quietest and best behaved 12 year olds that I know.

One of the problems with DH and I, is the 'way I am about his family'. This was because I expressed how upsetting I thought it was (about the hitting) and he got really defensive of his mum being criticised. He felt that my mum had trusted me as she told me about hitting DN and that I was betraying her trust by saying how wrong it was. If I say that I don't want DS to go again the shit will really hit the fan as he will see that as me overreacting and being critical of his family again. We are on seriously rocky ground at the moment as it is.

Re discipline, I know how hard work DS is and I don't just let him run riot. DD was an angel toddler in comparison whereas I have had to use every trick in the book with him. He is incredibly stubborn and when I tried the naughty step/ time out it turned into a huge drama and went on for hours. If I shouted or put him on the step every time he threw something or did something he shouldn't, I would never stop shouting and he would always be on it. The only thing that works at the moment is to firmly tell him no, and then quick distraction. Staying calm is crucial as well, if I shout he just about loses the plot.

The time out wasn't really the issue, it was the shouting. DH has recently started being really shouty with DS as well and I have had to tell him to stop it, it doesn't work, it upsets DS and prolongs the whole thing while being majorly stressful. I would rather find a way that doesn't involve hitting or shouting, though I know DS doesn't make it easy as he pushes every button going. He is improving a bit now and I think me being calmer is helping but I do understand how that would be hard for MIL to deal with, especially given how frazzled she is.

I also know MIL would be absolutely gutted if DS were to stop going. She does love him to bits and he is normally really good for her but always plays up when we go and pick him up. I think DH may have been shouting at DS when he is there as well, as it really embarrasses him when DS hits or throws things and I think he tries to prove that he is disciplining him. Understandably MIL prob now thinks that it's ok for her to shout too.

Not looking forward to the conversation with DH when he gets home... :(

Your DH has been brought up like this; he is obviously going to think it is normal, his brother is already an abuser. And I'm not surprised your little one has been going through a hitting phase either.
Come on OP, you know what you have to do. Even if your MIL is a good person she obviously has terrible parenting skills. Don't let another generation fall victim to them.

I would leave my child with her purely because you both have very different parenting styles. As never seen the way your mil i cant comment really on how aggressive she is. As youve been in an abusive background not sure how objective you can be.
My parents bought me up and they
Used smacking when i was naughty. It was never really hard though. It didn't emotionally scar me. I respect and adored my parents.
Maybe mil is really violent however we dont know that. As op doesn't believe in smacking a light tap maybe really hard smacking to her.
Cant believe people blame mil for destroying her kids lives just because she smacked them. Dh has turned out ok .
Do think though that trying to distract your ds when he is being clearly really naughty isn't working.

It will rock the boat but your child is your priority. Personally there is no way I would send my 2 yo DD to someone who smacked, hit and shouted in small children's faces.

In fact my PIL were looking after her 1 day a week, but as soon as I found out that MIL was not coping, and was really shouting at DD I made changes as soon as I could, and now she only has her alone for the odd hour when she takes her out in the buggy for a walk - so is unlikely to become overwhelmed.

It caused major ructions with DP but he wasn't happy with the way he was brought up, and thinks we are doing a better job with DD, so understood why I didn't want her exposed to the same things he was unhappy with (ie her temper, although she never hit them). Would this approach work for you?

I also wouldn't be surprised if he learned to hit from her smacking.....

For goodness sake Kali, a 2 year old can't be naughty. He is exploring the world and pushing boundaries. All he needs is to be taught what is safe, not dragged into some meaningless aggressive battle of wills.

Agree! And in a battle of wills with a toddler, the toddler always wins

Remove (with a sharp NO if necessary), discuss, distract is our method :)

(and before people say what a brat I must have, the childminder is constantly commenting how well behaved my stubborn streak of wilfullness is )

I can't believe you've left your DS there once a week for two and a half years, both knowing what she was like and knowing how overburdened she is. That should stop straight away. Go over to visit and let her see plenty of DS, but don't leave him there all day, unsupervised. I think you can word this as having more convenient childcare arrangments with a child minder, or as trying to give her a break as she already has two others she's raising. Blame the driving distance.

I'm way more worried about your niece than about either your DH or your MIL. Your DH needs to grow up and have a good hard look at what's going on with DN. Why won't MIL let you have DN over or take her out?? Does she not trust you (and if that's the case, she shouldn't get all upset that you don't trust her!!)?

Sorry, she is physically and emotionally abusing her granddaughter and you're worried about her shouting at your DS?

What about that poor girl? If her two sons have been in and out of prison it sounds like she has brought up two emotionally disturbed young men and is well on the way to doing the same to this girl.

If you can't offer her a home I think the least you could do is voice your concerns to social services, particularly re the hitting.

It makes me incredibly sad that you're worried about your own DS being shouted at but seem relatively unconcerned this poor girl is being abused.