to not want to speak to this person again despite him being my hisband's best friend?

[catlady123]

Have namechanged for this, I usually post in a different part of MN. I wanted people’s views on something that has upset me terribly and whether I am being unreasonable, as my husband thinks.

My husband has a best friend who is/was also a good friend of mine. He was over for dinner last night. I mentioned to him in the course of conversation that I am struggling emotionally with the fact that my fragile, old cat has become quite incontinent and I am wondering whether she should be put down at some point as she is soiling the house several times a day and I have a toddler. I have had this cat for over 17 years, through thick and thin in my life and this would be huge thing for me. I mentioned that I had thought of possible asking the vet to come to the house to do the deed without distressing her in any way, but also that I am far from coming to a decision on this yet.

His comment was that I should not do that but should take her a few hours drive away from home and then just let her out into the wild and “let nature take its course”. I was so shocked by this that I could not speak for a while, I then became very upset and refused to have dinner with him, going upstairs to bed instead. I later told my husband that I do not want anything to do with this friend again and that animal cruelty is something I cannot tolerate. I was absolutely shocked that the friend could think that I would take my beloved old cat and do this to her.

My husband’s view was that I was very rude to his friend, that I am being ridiculous, and that “everyone is entitled to their opinion”, although he himself would not actually do this to the cat. This caused a huge fight which has gone on much of the night. I don’t know what to say now. My husband tells me his friend will apologise for what he said. I can’t see that an apology would make any difference, he still thought that such cruelty was OK and that I would do something like this, how can apology for having expressed the opinion change that?

[TheBigJessie]

The first one was a family member (although not my grandmother(, in response to the television news, which was on Israel.
Exact words burned on my mind: "I think Hitler had a point". I fully expect that other MNers may consider this a light-hearted comment. I don't.

I did as I always do, except that was early on in my career of not nodding-and-smiling, and so there was more stammer and my absolute astonishment overlaid a great deal more fear. I explained what I thought she'd said and what that meant, and did she really mean that (answer boiled down to "yes" and "it's what everyone thinks"), and what that meant in human terms, and then pointed out that modern Israel would most likely not even exist, never mind in its present form, if it wasn't for Hitler's actions. I think I remember going into great detail about international politics circa 1947-'49. Fortunately for me, the formation of Israel had been something I'd been reading about. I wouldn't do so well now in a similar argument on facts.

Conclusion: she thinks I'm very PC, but she doesn't say that around me any more to avoid an argument.

Second one, also family member (also not my grandmother- this may actually be why people don't cross the road from me, they have low standards due to the opinions of my relatives, and I seem really pleasant in comparison ). This one was less justifying genocide, and more belittling it, to be fair.

"I'm fed up of the Jews complaining about the Holocaust. The street my mother was born in was destroyed, but no-one talks about that". I can't remember my exact response but I think I pointed out that massive scale of human life lost and the deliberate circumstances were a bit worse than one street being destroyed. (He didn't even complain about the loss of British lives. Just that street!)

Then he said, "Hmmm. But those Israelis look pretty shifty on the TV". I think I said that all the ones I'd seen on the TV had been politicians, and that in my opinion, all politicians look pretty shifty on the TV including British ones, and that even if Israel had the only shifty politicians in the world, their citizens would still be entitled to demand that Europe remembers the holocaust.

Possibly a bit offensive to politicians, admittedly, but again, I was still throwing off the shackles of "you should laugh offensive things off".

I don't generally see him very much, and he wonders why, because I was a bit too polite at the time about it.

[CoolStoryBro]

Oh God, Pawprints, I'm so sorry but I'm literally lol at the budgie comment

[MrsOakenshield]

sarascompact - sorry to quote yourself back at you but this is what you said:

'I'd also be seriously considering if my husband was the sort of man I wanted in my life if he responded to the situation as yours did.'

which is, is it not, saying that if your husband had done what the OP's husband had, you'd consider leaving him.

Fortuitously, the OP seems to be rather more level headed than you and Jessie. Unless - you were there weren't you, both of you! And you know that what the friend said was meant in cruelty, that he was advocating dumping an unwanted pet, rather than a clueless suggestion as to what might be best (particularly if he thought the cat was dying (going to sleep under a bush), which, as it transpires, it's not). Because, if you weren't there, I can't imagine how you can be so sure that the friend was being cruel and heartless rather than a bit dimwitted.

[TheBigJessie]

PS I don't know how he reacted as I stormed off (unreasonably, as has been pointed out). I so wish I had dealt with this differently and my actual behaviour was all wrong, but the question was really wheteher, in the end, I can maintain a friendship with someone who not only thinks that doing such a cruel thing to my cat would be an acceptable thing, but that I would actually consider doing such a thing.

Don't worry. Arguing your ground against something you find personally upsetting takes practice.

Do you want a friendship, or the appearance of one, where he comes round, but you are still seething?

For the first one, you are simply going to have to initiate a discussion when he apologises. Other Mners will doubtless come in with improvements, but as a placeholder perhaps the words, "I understand you didn't mean to upset me, so I think it's only fair that I explain to you right I reacted so badly." And then explain.

The best outcome is basically the "oh my gosh, I understand That's not what I imagined at all. I just thought it would be peaceful". Call me optimistic, but you've been friends with him for years, so he is unlikely to actually be a out-of-the-closet sadist and you've simply never noticed, so I think that the best case scenario is likely.

For the second, just accept his apology and privately stew. I don't advise it though, because few can act that well, and he'll know you are still angry.

[sarascompact]

Oh MrsOakenshield!

Yes, I would consider leaving a man who viewed cruelty as acceptable and who considered standing up against it "ridiculous" and "rude".

But that wasn't what you asked me the first time, is it?

You asked me:

"Ah right, so if your OH's friend said something you didn't like and your OH thought you over-reacted when you huffed off for the night in response to one ill-judged but well-meaning comment, you'd re-consider the whole marriage, sarascompact?"

There I replied NO, that I wouldn't reconsider my marriage purely because my husband's friend said something that I didn't like.

I said and I maintain that I would reconsider my relationship though if my husband thought that my objection to cruelty was "ridiculous" and was more concerned about social graces than morality.

I hope that clears it up for you.

[sarascompact]

Also, MrsOakenshield, you're right, I don't know if the man was being willfully cruel or just dimwitted. I do know that I don't choose to have either type of person in my circle of friends though!

[catlady123]

Will try and reply to more of the points later, but just to say: the cat is old and frail but not ill or suffering or at the point of death. She spends her day s sleeping in a basket (on an electric heating pad when it is cold) and her nights in a heated sleeping box. She can still get about and climb walls etc. She would not just crawl under a bush and peacefully die, she would be terrified and suffer for days if she was in the wild, fighting for survival.

On the other issue, I believe he was stupid and thoughtless rather than trying to be horrible. He most certainly was not joking though, he was apparntly rather bewildered at my reaction, my husband tells me, saying that this is the normal thing to do where he comes from.

[catlady123]

Will try and reply to more of the points later, but just to say: the cat is old and frail but not ill or suffering or at the point of death. She spends her day s sleeping in a basket (on an electric heating pad when it is cold) and her nights in a heated sleeping box. She can still get about and climb walls etc. She would not just crawl under a bush and peacefully die, she would be terrified and suffer for days if she was in the wild, fighting for survival.

On the other issue, I believe he was stupid and thoughtless rather than trying to be horrible. He most certainly was not joking though, he was apparntly rather bewildered at my reaction, my husband tells me, saying that this is the normal thing to do where he comes from.

[BalloonSlayer]

You do realise that quite a lot of people would be horrified at the idea of having a cat which is not in pain or suffering put to sleep, just because they are soiling and they also have a small child?

Just sayin' . . .

[sarascompact]

I thought that went without saying, BalloonSlayer.

[catlady123]

Oh god yes of course I realise that, that is why this is all so difficult, and I was not saying I am going to do it now, just that the time may come. It is very difficult of course with her soiling several times a day every day (wees and poos) and having a four year old running around, and it so happens also that because of personal circumstances (not going to go into further detail) we have a number of professional people working in our home every day, who are entitled to work in a clean environment. Social events are becoming impossible, just this past weekend one guest and her little boy both ended up with their shoes covered in poo, and having to stay dinner to clear out excrement and get rid of the smell in the room or kitchen is a regular experience. But no, I am not putting her to sleep now, I was just saying that one day it may have to happen.

[BalloonSlayer]

But no, I am not putting her to sleep now, I was just saying that one day it may have to happen.

of course

and he wasn't offering to drive your poor cat into the back of beyond and leave it there, he was also "just saying."

I know you cannot really compare the two because what he was suggesting is cruel, but at the same time as it is not his cat, it cannot be regarded as a serious suggestion.

However some people view euthanising any healthy animal as cruel.

But you need to ask yourself how you would feel if you suggested over dinner to someone that their cat who was not in pain or suffering should be put down, and they left the table and refused to speak to you ever again.

[Xiaoxiong]

catlady if he is from a different culture and also has never had a pet of his own before (a proper pet, not just an animal round the house) he really may not understand. I grew up in Asia and there is certainly no sentimentality about most animals whatsoever - cultural differences.

This is your opportunity to explain how badly he hurt your feelings, that in the UK right-minded people consider a pet a member of the family, and that the right thing to do is consider what is in the cat's best interests at all times and PTS painlessly at home in the calmest and most loving way when she no longer has any quality of life.

It sounds like this might be news to him and if he's generally a nice thoughtful guy about other things this is your opportunity to educate and inform, and give him the opportunity to apologise. Friendships preserved all round, one more person educated on how to treat animals with decency and respect. Win win all round.

I admire you for saying you overreacted - I know you are coming from a position of sadness about a very tough decision you will have to make someday for your very loved pet

[hillyhilly]

I love my cat and wouldn't dream of doing that but I do this you're over-reacting, sorry

[Xiaoxiong]

catlady if he is from a different culture and also has never had a pet of his own before (a proper pet, not just an animal round the house) he really may not understand. I grew up in Asia and there is certainly no sentimentality about most animals whatsoever - cultural differences.

This is your opportunity to explain how badly he hurt your feelings, that in the UK right-minded people consider a pet a member of the family, and that the right thing to do is consider what is in the cat's best interests at all times and PTS painlessly at home in the calmest and most loving way when she no longer has any quality of life.

It sounds like this might be news to him and if he's generally a nice thoughtful guy about other things this is your opportunity to educate and inform, and give him the opportunity to apologise. Friendships preserved all round, one more person educated on how to treat animals with decency and respect. Win win all round.

I admire you for saying you overreacted - I know you are coming from a position of sadness about a very tough decision you will have to make someday for your very loved pet

[Madamecastafiore]

Jesus Christ - if anything other than a human was crapping all over my house (and there would need to be extenuating circumstances for that to be acceptable) to the extent that people were getting it on them and the kitchen had to be fumigated before dinner it would no longer be living in my house.

[HattyJack]

What's with all this 'right-minded' people nonsense Xiaoxiong? Let it lie would be my advice - don't expect him to be interested in a big talk about why he's wrong and you're right or expect him to apologise. He just expressed an opinion with no intention to cause upset.

Madamecastafiore :D

[Madamecastafiore]

That's the thought out polite reply too Hatty - in real life there would be swearing and the word filthy peppering that paragraph.

[PaperSeagull]

I think you overreacted, and it seems you have also come to this conclusion. Storming out of the room and refusing to have dinner with your guest was childish and inappropriate. If I were in your place, I would offer a sincere apology to the guest.

As an animal lover, I do understand the deep connections we have to our beloved pets. So I can understand your visceral response to his (probably) thoughtless statement. But I think you blew it way out of proportion.

[PomBearArmy]

I completely understand your feelings OP. When it became clear our cat would have to be put down I was an emotional wreck for the best part of a week. If someone had suggested I turn her out to starve in the woods for a week I would have felt the urge to throttle them!

The guy is probably not vindictive, just a bit stupid and thoughtless.

I hope you're feeling okay.

[veryhairymary]

I was eating at a friends sisters place; she'd moved closer to us and we'd stuck up a newish but good friendship. Whilst we were eating, a racist conversation started. I was shocked at her and her husbands ignorant views - they held very stupid, illogical views and were quoting it all as fact. They were really in my face about it.

I finished eating and left quickly afterwards. I have never spoken to them again. My friend has asked me why I no longer speak with his sister and was it her husband's views - his sister still thinks we were having a lovely meal and can't understand how vile they were.

Another friend's dad died and he'd promised his dying father that he'd look after the dog. It pissed on the floor as he'd not recognised it needed to pee. He got the dog put down a few days later as it was a hassle; loads of people would have had the dog if he'd asked but he just had it put down. I could never really like him after this. i don't know if it was grief or what but it was shocking.

[Xiaoxiong]

Hatty if the guy is from somewhere where pets are not treated in the same way as in the UK, he's probably pretty bewildered at the OP's strong reaction and it's an opportunity to explain to him that pets are treated differently here.

All I was trying to say with the "right-minded" wording was trying not to generalise about "this is how all people in the UK treat their animals" as of course that's not true, there are people here who are unkind to animals too. It's just that the majority would have a family pet PTS when quality of life was gone, rather than turn them out to "let nature take its course". Maybe better wording would have been "in the UK, most people would consider a dog or cat to be a member of the family" etc etc.

I had a respectful and productive conversation with a colleague from Vietnam a few years ago who was commenting on British sentimentality about animals so it's not a lost cause.