To think that a team building/activity day at school shouldn't include some bible instruction and an encouragement to pray?

[soontobeslendergirl]

OH and I both athiests. We don't have a problem with other beliefs of whatever religous persuasion people choose. We don't remove our children from school RE/RME or withdraw them from attendance at Easter/Christmas service. We know these activities take place, we know in advance that they are happening, we have a choice whether to allow our children to go.

Anyway, No2 son goes today to a school organised activity day at an external centre (run by a Christian organisation so it turns out) as part of his transition to High school - it was badged as a team building/bonding day and we were strongly told that he should attend (at a cost of £25).

Anyway he seems to have had a good time but just told my OH in the car on the way to Scouts that they were given a lesson about the bible by some man at the centre and told to join him in prayer.

I am really annoyed and think that we should have been told that this was happening so we had a choice whether to opt out of that part of the day. AIBU?

It was in a Christian organisation, so prayer and Bible talk are a big thing there.

If you're annoyed at that organisation wanting to tell the kids about the gospel then YABU, as that's what Christians do.

If you're annoyed at the school not telling you, then YANBU, but I wouldn't tangle yourself up about it. Just shrug and let your DC decide for him/herself.

Being around atheists, Christians, other faiths etc will be good in the long run, help the child decide for themselves when they are able to.

Its the fact that the school didn't tell us that we am annoyed about. We am happy for him to make up his own mind which is why we haven't removed him from lessons on the basis that they cover all faiths and it isn't about religious promotion which we see this as.

Just because it was in a Christian Centre doesn't mean that we should expect that religious worship would be included - I go to an exercise class held in a church hall, I don't expect to do a bit of prayer while I am there.

I would be bloody annoyed that the school allowed a faith organisation to proselytise under the disguise of running an normal transition activity and I would complain very strongly about it.

I bet if it was the Koran they were quoting people would have got very heated about it.

YANBU, the school should have told you that the provider was extremely Christian and given you the chance of opting out. After paying £25 I'd feel even more miffed.

Schools have form for this though - my DD1's school had a provider come in to talk about friendships and puberty and growing up. They had to do this test on the computer where they were given a scenario and three 'what would you do' options at the end of each - and in each case, the obviously 'correct' and 'desirable' choice was accompanied by a Bible quote. I only found out after the event, looked up the provider and found out they were an evangelising organisation targeting young people. Livid does not begin to describe my reaction.

Fortunately DD1 was not impressed, she said she would have chosen the 'correct' options anyway and found the Bible quoted patronising, but children do not need indoctrination by stealth.

There's a difference between a Christian centre running activities/team building for children, and a church hall being the venue for an exercise class. I personally would expect a Christian Centre to have some degree of worship ic hosting an event for a school.

In which case, ilovecolin, the school ought to choose a neutral provider for this kind of activity.

By the way, you cannot choose to remove your child from religious lessons. It's a legal requirement for all school children.

Why should they provide a neutral provider? Were the children forced to pray or invited to join in with prayer?

It looks as if the prayer was pretty compulsory.

If you are Christian yourself, I can understand why this would not be disturbing and you would even want to share your faith in this kind of way. Try to understand though that atheists may have excellent reasons for their position, and they don't want to find stealth indoctrination going on without being given fair warning beforehand.

Schools have a responsibility not to allow this kind of thing.

Also don't Scouts promise to do their duty to God? I know the girl guide promise has changed literally in the last few days its cone into force, and no longer refers to God. I believe Scouts are the same except they now have the choice of old and new promise.

I agree the school should've told you it was a Christian organisation running the event. But if you had known, would you have still sent him to benefit from all the other non-religious activities?

I am agnostic but sometimes I think I could do with the odd prayer. I prayed in the hospital chapel when my dad was dying. Not sure what I was praying to though. The chaplain was just a wonderful kind and gentle help when my world was falling apart.

I went to church with the Brownies as a child and prayed and I pray at weddings, christenings and funerals.

If you are an atheist it is just words. My mum is a devout Catholic and says the rosary every night.

As I said, I am agnostic but have never felt forced into any religion by anyone.

I think it was a day out for your child with a little extra thrown in to think about and question/embrace or reject.

Trust your dc's intellect.

OMG stop the world, child exposed to religion? Did he self combust?

By the way, you cannot choose to remove your child from religious lessons. It's a legal requirement for all school children

Yes you can. It is a curriculum requirement that and act of group worship is provided NOT that you have to attend. IME the only people who remove their children from lessons are JWs

There is a christian outdoor centre near us which schools often use for team building. The centre always gives a christian message and short prayer but it is not in any way pushed on the children. It is just a statement of what they are about. The outdoor activities are fantastic and it doesn't do children any harm to reflect on what other people believe.

My DD went to this centre for many week long holidays (not through school, but because a friend was also going) and embraced the whole happy clappy singing praise thing even though she is not a Christian and she made loads of good friends, some religious some not. It can teach children tolerance and acceptance. Not a bad thing i think.

I'd be pissed off giving money to a religious organisation...but my dcs would refuse to join in the prayer and would be equally pissed off at being subjected to an hour of religion. They took in all that stuff when they were 5 - at 11 they have more sense.

the trouble is that a) a team building day should not include time-wasting like this, especially at this cost, and b) kids should not be TOLD to pray.

RE before 18 should simply be 'this is what religion x does and what they believe', NOT presented as fact.

Unless the school itself is religious, I don't think they should be getting a religious organisation involved in a moving-up/team-building/bonding day, and they should certainly have made it clear in advance that there would be a religious element in the day's activities.

I am sure there are many non-Christian families (atheist, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness etc) who would object strongly to paying £25 for their DCs to be involved in evangelical Christian activities and would have chosen not to participate if they had been told. Which would mean that their children would be excluded from the 'team building' etc and would start school at a disadvantage, which is discriminatory.

I think the problem is that some evangelical organisations offer various services to schools (drama workshops etc) at rates much lower than other providers, and so schools with limited budgets are tempted to use them, overlooking the religious content which many parents might find problematic.

In your position, I would be writing to the school to point out your objections.

Why should they provide a neutral provider? Were the children forced to pray or invited to join in with prayer?

When you are talking about 11 and 12 year old children in a school party that is pretty much the same thing. It would be a strong child that actively stood up and said "actually I'd rather not"

Also don't Scouts promise to do their duty to God? I know the girl guide promise has changed literally in the last few days its cone into force, and no longer refers to God. I believe Scouts are the same except they now have the choice of old and new promise.

I don't have an issue with this as although it is in the promise, there is no other religious observance - and also we had the option of them not going if we wanted to opt out. I don't have an issue with making a promise to something that I don't believe exists.

snowlie Who said anything about it being an hour of religion? It was likely 10-5 minutes during a break.
As for children of other religions hearing this message - i repeat- it teaches children acceptance and tolerance. You would think that with everything that is going on in the world at the moment teaching tolerance, acceptance and respect for religion (any religion) is to be commended.
I am NOT religious by the way. Just very tolerant.

Thanks for all the points people. I don't have an issue with Christians or Religious things per se. I just feel that we should have been told beforehand that this may have been an element of the day. I probably would still have let him go, but he would have been prepared for this to happen and made up his mind whether he wanted to join in r not or just pretend (which is probably what he did anyway) He has close friends who are regular church goers, as do I, as well as friends of other faiths and none.

It is not a religious school, just a normal comprehensive school - and this isn't even the closest centre of the type to the school. Budget probably paid a part I agree.

I don't think it does teach tolerance to force your religious views on others. Apologies about the time thing I clearly misread. I wouldn't want to waste any of my time praying, I observe silence at school assemblies but it pisses me off that I have to listen to it - I spent my childhood listening to it, I hated every bloody second.

I don't think it was an hour either, it was at the end of the day before they headed back on the bus. He is tired and has gone to bed so I'll speak to him in the morning to make sure I have the full story.

littlewhitebag, that's exactly why I don't withdraw them from RE lessons at school. These are designed to be balanced and it is knowledge that is being discussed, what happened today seems to edge into religious persuasion for me.

My house is like the League of Nations some days - my boys have friends from as many cultures as we have in the locality - neither I nor they have an issue with that. It's that a adult unconnected with school took it upon themselves to have a religious service at a school event without parents being aware of it that I object to.