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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that a team building/activity day at school shouldn't include some bible instruction and an encouragement to pray?

82 replies

soontobeslendergirl · 03/09/2013 20:53

OH and I both athiests. We don't have a problem with other beliefs of whatever religous persuasion people choose. We don't remove our children from school RE/RME or withdraw them from attendance at Easter/Christmas service. We know these activities take place, we know in advance that they are happening, we have a choice whether to allow our children to go.

Anyway, No2 son goes today to a school organised activity day at an external centre (run by a Christian organisation so it turns out) as part of his transition to High school - it was badged as a team building/bonding day and we were strongly told that he should attend (at a cost of £25).

Anyway he seems to have had a good time but just told my OH in the car on the way to Scouts that they were given a lesson about the bible by some man at the centre and told to join him in prayer.

I am really annoyed and think that we should have been told that this was happening so we had a choice whether to opt out of that part of the day. AIBU?

OP posts:
Picturesinthefirelight · 04/09/2013 22:00

Soontobeslendergirl

You'd be proud of my dd. two years ago at the age of 9 she stood up in front of her class as they were practising for a class assembly & explained why she would not be participating in the prayer.

I was flabbergasted when she told me.

Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 22:21

well done to your daughter pictures I think tbf these were children new to High school with others that they didn't know and were taken by surprise so I don't think any of them in these pre teen early teen years would want to draw attention to themselves.

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GrimmaTheNome · 04/09/2013 22:34

They could be proselytising about anything - Buddhism...
(AFAIK Buddhists don't proselytise ... not all religions do, don't tar 'em all with the same brush Smile.)

I bet phantom's dad does more good in the world than the types who use somewhat underhand methods to try to promote their views.

blueskiesandbutterflies · 04/09/2013 22:38

What harm was done? Are you concerned you son will convert?

?

Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 23:03

blue sky have you read the thread? Neither I nor anyone else is saying he has come to any harm. I couldn't care less if he wants to be a Christian on anything else - he can't "convert" as he has no faith to convert from Confused

The point is that he attends a non-denominational school, he was to attend a "team building" day and they snuck some religious worship NOT education into it.......and I paid for it, under false pretences. It made my child uncomfortable as he wasn't expecting it and he found it creepy. I am sure that hasn't furthered their aim at all.

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Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 23:07

that should be blueskies apologies for the mis-spell. And it isn't true that I couldn't care less, I care about everything that my children do. What I meant was that it wouldn't upset me and I'd still love and support him in his choices whether I agreed with them or not.

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snowlie · 04/09/2013 23:10

I think kids understand that when the teacher says let's take our books out and read, it isn't optional and when an authority figure says let's pray, it's using the same language and there will be many kids that don't think the praying is an optional activity either.
I think it's important at the very least to clarify to a mixed faith/non faith group of children, that if you don't wish to pray, that's ok, just sit quietly.

RussianBlu · 04/09/2013 23:12

I would complain to the school. I don't think they are allowed to do that.

Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 23:19

I believe my son when he says the words used were "let us pray.." that is the wording used when I have been in Church services before but something that he would not necessarily be familiar with so it would be unusual for him to pluck that form of words from thin air. Which basically means that the school reply saying that the owner "had outlined to
them the story of the centre, which indeed mentioned the fact that the centre is a Christian Youth Activity Centre" is actually hogwash or at least only part of the story.

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RussianBlu · 04/09/2013 23:22

Children go on outings to visit churches, mosques, temples and so on. They are there to have a look and learn about other faiths. The leaders are not allowed to ask the children to join in with their form of worship. I see this as the same thing. I would be most unimpressed especially as your school is not a religious one. Message to head is needed I think.

acer12 · 04/09/2013 23:23

YANBU
I would be annoyed.

Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 23:25

In fact, the more I read the email response, the more it reads to me like arse covering and referring me to the fact that the name and web address of the centre are given on the detail form. I am actually getting more annoyed about it than I was.

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Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 23:26

I've already messaged the school and had a response from the Head of year/deputy head.

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Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 04/09/2013 23:32

Russian exactly - I have no issue with education but this went beyond that I think.

Given that my son is not the most communicative, generally all you get is "yeah it was good" etc and then maybe for he will tell you a few bits and pieces that happened over the subsequent days, I think that this did feel odd to him for him to specifically bring it up. I am in the dark about 99% of what his usual school day contains but this felt significant enough to warrant special mention. It's not what I would have hoped for from the day and he has mentioned a couple of other things about the other activities today so that's good. I am not going to ask him about that bit again as I'd rather he remembered the bits he enjoyed.

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prettybird · 04/09/2013 23:43

Even though the Head of Year/depute head responsible for transition at ds' school is an RE teacher, there is no way she would see this as acceptable. Hmm

As someone else pointed out, just because (eg) a dance class takes part in a church hall doesn't mean you expect it to be a religious experience. The fact that you knew the address and the web-site is irrelevant. Angry

Maybe make that point back (copying the head teacher in) and saying that you would expect that for any future such events, the religious component will be more explicit.

If you don't get a satisfactory response, I would then take it either to the Parent Council or to the Education Department. Not necessarily as a formal complaint, but as a concern about the non-denominational nature of the Department's schools.

RussianBlu · 04/09/2013 23:48

Sorry, hadn't read the whole thread. It was a team building day, happened to be held in a building belonging to a religious group. It should not have involved any act of worship or discussion of the bible or religion, unless it was mentioned in the letter you had from school. I am assuming there was no mention of it. I would be ringing the people at the centre asking them what they are playing at and again tell the head you aren't happy with their explanation.

It may seem like blowing things out of proportion to some people and not a big deal. It is a big deal. I watched a Christian group come in to a school once to act out some little story. They introduced it as a true story and then concluded by inviting all the children to their wonderful church where there would be lovely things like bouncy castles and yummy food for them to come and share. I was fuming.

prettybird · 04/09/2013 23:53

Sorry, realised my post could be confusing: I was talking about the depute head at my ds' school not seeing such actions as acceptable. Blush

alpinemeadow · 05/09/2013 06:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MackerelOfFact · 05/09/2013 08:15

I think the money is key for me. If it'd been a free day for the kids, funded and provided by a Christian organisation, I would be happy enough with them explaining at the end a bit about who they were and why they provided the activities, with (optional!) prayer, provided this was made clear to parents beforehand.

What I don't agree with is paying £25 (which is a hell of a lot for one day, but I assume covered travel etc as well) to a religious organisation to preach to your child uninvited. It's clearly not a charitable enterprise, it exists to raise money for its Christian activities, and you should definitely be given a say on whether you are happy to be involved with this.

I agree that it being at a Christian centre doesn't mean worship was implied.

GrimmaTheNome · 05/09/2013 08:20

The usual rule is that any school activity which may involve worship - such as a carol service held in a church - the parents are sent a letter with an opt-out slip. Even if they aren't usually opted out of assembly/RE.

Original poster
soontobeslendergirl · 05/09/2013 08:25

The note did include a statement about contacting the school if payment was an issue. There was travel involved but the centre does indicate that a one day session costs 25 pound. Although it was done within school hours including travel so would not be a full day.

I'll update later if they respond to my follow up email. I'd be interested to find out if any other parents are aware or bothered or if it is just me with a bee in my bonnet.

I know they didn't do this trip at all last year.

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Beastofburden · 05/09/2013 08:35

Given that this is his new school, I can see that you don't want to start out on the wrong foot, but equally some heads can be very insensitive, if they personally are Christian, and can't imagine why it would be offensive. If you get no sensible reply, I suppose there is always an approach to the governors, but that is rather an escalation, unless you know one personally who is sympathetic.

Or you could become a governor yourself and have a bit more direct control over this kind of thing.

prettybird · 05/09/2013 08:51

Scottish schools don't have governors. The Head Teacher is required by law to report to and attend meetings of the Parent Council - but doesn't really have to do anything. About the only "power" rather than influence that members of the Parent Council have is to be involved in the recruitment of members of the senior management team - and even that is no longer enshrined in legislation Hmm.

Beastofburden · 05/09/2013 11:25

Ah. Sorry, didnt realise the school was in Scotland.

KissMeHardy · 05/09/2013 11:37

You'd be proud of my dd. two years ago at the age of 9 she stood up in front of her class as they were practising for a class assembly & explained why she would not be participating in the prayer.

So you've successfully brainwashed her? Well done, congratulations !!!