To think that a team building/activity day at school shouldn't include some bible instruction and an encouragement to pray?

[soontobeslendergirl]

OH and I both athiests. We don't have a problem with other beliefs of whatever religous persuasion people choose. We don't remove our children from school RE/RME or withdraw them from attendance at Easter/Christmas service. We know these activities take place, we know in advance that they are happening, we have a choice whether to allow our children to go.

Anyway, No2 son goes today to a school organised activity day at an external centre (run by a Christian organisation so it turns out) as part of his transition to High school - it was badged as a team building/bonding day and we were strongly told that he should attend (at a cost of £25).

Anyway he seems to have had a good time but just told my OH in the car on the way to Scouts that they were given a lesson about the bible by some man at the centre and told to join him in prayer.

I am really annoyed and think that we should have been told that this was happening so we had a choice whether to opt out of that part of the day. AIBU?

YANBU. ITA with what exexpat said. Perhaps if there were pupils who were opted out of 'collective worship' and/or RE the school would have been a bit more scrupulous about this - I'm sure it would be unacceptable for JWs/Brethren. But they shouldn't have just assumed it would be OK for anyone else.

spoke to my son this morning, it was about 1 minutes or so, after lunch and after the bible lesson they guy just said "Let us pray...." not really giving them an opportunity to leave although obv no-one can actually make them pray. He said he felt uncomfortable and the guy was creepy

Anyway - I dropped the school an email this morning saying that I thought that parents should have been informed about the fact that religious instruction and worship was involved. I was polite. I received a response basically saying that they had 15 minutes of reflection where the people who run the centre talked about how it came about and that involved saying it was Christian based and that the note issued had given details of where it would be held.

I responded again saying that just because a venue is Christian funded centre that does not make me assume that my child would be involved in both religious instruction and worship and that it would be useful in future for parents to be made aware in advance to save any misunderstanding.

I finished of saying that he had enjoyed the day and that we would not have not sent him, we would however had explained to him that there may be a bit of prayer involved and that to respect other peoples wish to join in, if he didn't, he should just sit quietly - which is in fact what he did. No harm done, it just seemed a bit arrogant to me.

I am sure that they would not take children to an atheist centre (if one existed) and allow staff there to reverse preach to the children without obtaining parental permission. There seems to be an assumption that because it is Christian and as that will be the background, if not the upbringing, of the majority of the pupils/staff then that is somehow okay.

mmm was he forced or just encouraged. Mine go to great school and have prayers every day. The head just lets who do what. I am a bit shocked at a team building day being religion led though I mean a class of secondary school children could be so diverse that they could have offended (not in a bad way just on belief) a tonne of people. And you paid for this? As You say we are meh but some parents could have been quite offended.A big call for the school me thinks

I would be cross about this too OP, if it were my children. What I really think is that there is no place for religious organisations to be allowed to provide this kind of service, within the context of state education. However, I know that this is not a popularly held view.

I think that what should have happened, at the very least, is that the school informed you of the religious nature of the organisation, so that you were able to make a choice.

I'm also a bit sceptical about organisations that conflate something really fun, with something religious.

There used to be a church organisation that went around schools inviting children to discos. And then once they had them as a captive audience, piled on the religious stuff. It smacks a bit of the same kind of thing.

I like your response OP

I would say "forced" is maybe too strong a word, but they were having lunch and then were given a bit of talk about the bible which immediately led into "let us pray..." which didn't really give them an option.

I hope they have taken my point on board as I agree, there could have been children of alternative religious beliefs (or none) that could have been offended or put off attending what was meant to be an inclusive day to get the children to bond.

OP, I am Christian, and this strikes me as a big bowl of WRONG. I believe it's creepy and underhanded to "sneak in" a prayer and an explanation about their Christian work, within a day that's supposed to be about something else. It's like those terrible assemblies (Ned Show) that are supposed to be about self-esteem, but really are about selling your kids expensive yo-yo's.

Children should not be under any pressure to worship. This is totally different from RE classes, which are as much a cultural and historical education as religious. And to those who say "well he wasn't forced was he?". Well, in a way, yes he was.

Soon, I think YANBU at all. And I think you're being very dignified about this.

Slingy we have just had the same discussion in our house about organisations who used to come around when my OH and I were children basically bribing us with sweeties and stuff to come along. I guess it didn't do us any harm.

Was it a place like this?

If it was then the activities they provide are excellent and at a great price. The staff are also fun and great with the children. They are given the Christian message but it's not brainwashing, just something to reflect on if they want to.

Thank you clingo. As I say, I am not anti anyone else's beliefs, I get confused from time to time and need to check who can eat what when my sons friends come over or I invite them along to McDonalds after swimming though but I would never exclude or ridicule anyone or talk about my beliefs with anyone other than my OH and if asked, my children. Everyone to their own thing.

It just seemed really underhand and it did make us uncomfortable but we have laughed it off with No2 son as I don't want that bit of the day to be the bit that he remembers.

YANBU. They could be proselytising about anything - Buddhism, Islam, the importance of voting Conservative...

If you didn't agree to it, they shouldn't do it.

If you are Christian yourself, I can understand why this would not be disturbing and you would even want to share your faith in this kind of way.

Not at all. I am Christian and I'd be concerned that it was a form of Christianity I didn't agree with, e.g. fundamentalism.

yes littlewhitebag - I am sure that the staff are great and my son enjoyed the activities. This was booked through the school though not something that I would go an select for my child to attend. I would probably choose a non religious provider. I would probably get in trouble if in the course of my work i decided to share my beliefs uninvited to paying customers.

It may not be the places issue - they may have explained to the school that that is what they do and the school signed up to that without telling us.

I'm sorry, it is still underhand and not appropriate.

and clingo I have no problem with RE/RME in school for precisely the reasons you give. At the end of the day, my children could decide to become Christians/Muslims/Buddhists - their choice, but I wouldn't like to think that someone imposed their own views on them.

YADNBU

Your ds' go to a non-denom school. This was over and above "normal".

In the interests of school/parent partnership (you can tell I'm on a Parent Council ), I'd raise it gently with the school, suggesting that in future they make the Christian involvement more explicit, so that people can choose whether they want to pay the £25 and/or ask the organisation not to include the bible study/prayer element.

You could also if you don't get a satisfactory response raise it with the Parent Council as a communciation/ethos issue - but personally, I always try to discuss things first with the school.

My dad's a vicar. He runs a no strings attached youth club for all-comers at the church hall. There is no bible teaching or prayer time involved. he has fallen out with other leaders/helpers on several occasions when they have tried to sneak in a prayer or "preach" to the kids in their care. His motto is we don't need a God slot, because Gods in the lot.

I know OP this wont fully resonate with you as you don't believe, but what he means is they are there as a moral witness, a safe place to be, providing examples of good citizenship etc etc to the youngsters who come. If they want someone to talk to, confide in, ask advice of that's all well and good. They may even recall how welcome they were and how respectfully they were treated and want to know more about the faith at some point, or turn back to the church in troubled times in later life, but "Doing God on the sly" when you have got them there under false pretences, only serves to undermine all that and label you as a religious freak or bible basher.

I am a practising Christian and I still find this very odd indeed for a "school" event.

Seems to me the school should definitely have warned you the activity would have a strong Christian/proselytizing element, and it isn't out of order for you to gently email the head. In fact, unless it is a church school they ought not choose an overtly religious provider even with an opt-out clause for parents, unless they are also rotating around such activities with other faith groups, because these kids are at an age where they are embarrassed to opt out. I don't think the children will be converted by this at that age, so it's not effective from a Christian point of view anyway, and what the pupils will learn is that their school is totally insensitive to our multicultural reality.

More important given the age of the children, I always wonder about the ubiquity of Nativity plays in nurseries here. I mean as much as half of most of the children where we live are probably non-Christian families.

Phantom you said it better than I could. And your dad sounds amazing.

Thank you for all your thoughts - I feel I have made my point gently to the school and hope that they take it on board.

It probably doesn't help that the area we live in is not as culturally diverse as it could be (my boys just seem to gather up who-ever there is).

It makes me think that the school didn't really think too much about it as the vast majority of the school roll will be of Christian background albeit not necessarily practising.

I agree with clingo again! :o phantom your dad sounds very sure and certain in his beliefs without the need to preach and recruit. Good people come from all walks of life - there is a definite percentage of Christians that think that you can't be a good moral person without a connection to church and a god.

...and other religions too no doubt, but I have less interaction with others.

Cults and religious nuts are always going to try to target the weak or impressionable people in society, particularly children. The school should not have allowed it without permission.

cingo, thanks, I guess my dad IS amazing - I should tell him so!
I was only re-stating what you had said, and I liked your "whole bowl of WRONG" statement very much

and as for those bloomin Ned shows, I am so with you there, hopefully we have got rid of them at our school now as so many people complained at being nagged by their DC to spend £15 on a yoyo they would never master and would end up a tangled heap of tat on the bedroom floor!

Phantom and safe, I agree with both of you (was just trying to introduce my POV gently) and agree that phantoms dad is behaving in a thoroughly decent and moral way.