to tell xp that his finances are not my problem

[thatisall]

Where to start?
XP and separated almost 7 years ago on weird terms (he was a cheat and a manipulative one) we remained uncomfortable friends if that makes sense. After several months of 'friendship' for dd sake but no maintenance/support at all, I contacted the CSA.

He was incensed that he had to pay 200 towards her every month. His payments have not been reassessed since then.

A few weeks ago whilst speaking to the CSA about a missing payment (he had paid, they had not passed it on) they suggested we check a few details were still correct as it had been so long. The fact that he changed jobs a few years ago was logged as a change.
When I say he changed jobs, he went from working in a call centre to something with what would now appear to be much better pay. I am confident, CONFIDENT that he told me he had already told the CSA.

Anyway today xp arrives to collect dd and 'wants a word'. It seems his pay has gone up dramatically and the CSA feel he may need to pay more and that as he is responsible for updating them he may have to pay the difference for the last 3 years.

XP asked me to tell them to stop the reassessment and agree to him paying an extra few quid per month (20 was his suggestion) directly to me without CSA involvement and to forget any debt that may have been accrued. He then implied that if I allowed the CSA to properly reassess him then the debt may be so large that he would struggle to be able to afford to see dd and then she would suffer and all because 'i want his money'.

This tells me that he knows he has been underpaying and quite dramatically by the sound of it. I'm bit that XP is still trying to manipulate me or that he thinks he still can! For years he could get his way by saying 'just think of what that would do to dd' or 'for dd's sake' but really it would be for his sake.

I don't want dd to suffer or miss seeing her df but i refuse to believe that times would be so tough that he couldn't afford to see his child!? Or that the CSA would enforce payments that would cause that??

Anyway in a shock move even to me, I remained cool as a cucumber and said 'with all due respect, this isn't my problem'

Honestly this is so unlike me that he was visibly taken aback. He picked up the CSA letter, announced that he would speak to a legal person and left with dd.

I'm struggling to sleep now wondering if i am being cold, spiteful or even cruel. Am i causing problems where there don't need to be any? We could definitely use that extra money however much it is.
The fact that I can't sleep also makes me wonder whether I am once again being manipulated

Am I being unreasonable?

[RalphGnu]

Further to what ChocHobNob said, they will do this even if it their own fuck up.

I guess you'll never know though if he really did tell them of his change of circs, or if the CSA knew and failed to do anything about it, which is depressingly likely.

[ThereGoesTheYear]

YANBU. He has defrauded your dd, and has been caught out. And now he thinks that's your problem? How do trips to theme parks pay for the day to day food, clothes, housing costs for your DD?

[ThereGoesTheYear]

D you believe that he did tell the CSA? If his earnings went up dramatically, would it not have occurred to him that his CSA payments would also have gone up?

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Choc,

That just implys the change was logged during THAT call as the op had said they were checking details hadn't changed.

So they checked details found one that had changed and logged it.

Perhaps the op can clarify when she's back

[ChocHobNob]

Ralph - they had his change of job on record. So in other words he rang and said "I've changed jobs" and the CSA said "thank you" and done nothing about it. He may well have assumed his payments didn't need to change then. Many people would think the same as the CSA are supposed to know what they are doing.

Once they realise their mistake, they want the arrears (that THEY have caused) paid off asap and don't care if the ex can't afford it.

If the CSA had done their job in the first place, this wouldn't have happened.

[StuntGirl]

Oh yes happymummy informal arrangements work so well, and never result in the other parent not paying what they owe, or paying it when they like, or unilaterally deciding that because they bought X this week they will deduct it from the amount owed, etc.

Informal arrangements are a great way for one parent to exert unfair control over the entire thing.

[RustyBear]

Choc hobnobs - I read the OP as meaning that the change of jobs was logged as a change during the conversation the OP was having with the CSA (ie that she mentioned it when asked if there had been any changes), and that the XP was lying when he said he had notified them.

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Slight tangent here but it's not too different from say, contacting tax credits about a change in circumstances, but then not making sure they've reviewed your award appropriately. If I'm overpaid, even if I am confident I told them about my change of circs, then I'll still be liable for the overpayment and will either have a huge chunk of my income stopped, or have to pay it back over a period of time. Even if the CSA have caused this by not acting on the ex's information, then he's still big enough and grown up enough to know and understand the basic calculations on what he pays in maintenance and how that should change based on his new, increased, income. The ex here really only has himself to blame, unless he had been chasing this up, and repeatedly reassured by CSA that despite his increased income his payments wouldn't change.

YANBU op and your response was spot on. It's all his problem, not yours.

[ChocHobNob]

Well if the change was only logged recently, then the ex won't incur any arrears and the OP will not get any back pay. The reassessment would only take place from the date they were notified of his change of circumstances.

If he is to have 3 years of arrears, that means they were told about his change of job 3 years ago and didn't recalculate.

[RalphGnu]

ChocHobNob, this doesn't surprise me at all.

OP, the CSA are capable of massive fuck ups, so monumentally incompetent you wouldn't believe. Incompetent to the point of having to get your MP involved! If it's true, then your ex is in for a rough ride, financially speaking.

Of course, this doesn't excuse him trying to manipulate you though.

[ChocHobNob]

Tension that is true. But if tax credits made an error and that error resulted in the family struggling for money every month, I'm sure the person would be pretty annoyed and complaining to the tax credit's department for causing their financial hardship. I can't imagine many people's response to their financial dilemma would be "suck it up and live off beans for a year, you should have known the tax credits department made a mistake". People would more likely be sympathetic to the position the family have been left in.

[hettienne]

The ex's issues with the CSA are for him to deal with, it's nothing to do with the OP.

If he would genuinely choose to punish his own daughter by refusing to see her, then she is probably better off without such a wanker in her life anyway.

[ChocHobNob]

Bottom line is he has to pay the arrears if they are due. Is it the OP's problem? No. But the OP said she didn't believe the CSA could force payments which left the non resident parent in financial hardship. My point is, yes they can.

If it had been down to the ex refusing to pay the higher amount for 3 years, then I would be firmly in the "tough. He made his bed, lie in it" camp. But if it is a result of the CSA making an error and then focusing more on gaining the arrears back as quickly as possible with no regard for how the ex will afford it or if it will impact the DD when she is with Dad in any way, then I don't agree with that.

He should pay it back though, of course.

[RalphGnu]

And sometimes you can keep in touch with the CSA asking if the information they have is correct and if you are paying the right amount and they tell you yes, everything is correct when they are in fact lying through their teeth and hoping you don't notice because they can see a monumental fuck up has occurred and they don't want to take the blame for it.

But it is up the ex and the CSA to sort that out, not the OP or her daughter who are the innocent parties. I really do hope he's bluffing about not seeing his daughter. My friend is going through the same with her wanker ex and nobody's gaining anything through it. So childish.

[ChocHobNob]

If the CSA deduct 40% of his wages every month at source and the remaining 60% only covers his housing costs then he wouldn't be punishing his daughter by not seeing her ... he could actually not afford to see her if he is 2 hours away and cannot afford petrol/train fares.

That is my point.

Hopefully it won't get to that point.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

If the error is the fault of the csa there are several routes you can use to get arrears reduced spread over longer terms or even quashed. In some circumstances it is even possible for the nrp to not have to pay them and the csa be made liable.

As a nrp it is your responsibility to make sure every assessment is correct and based on the correct details if your income increases but your payments don't it is down to you to chase it, the same as it is with every other statutory org.

They have a system in place where by a nrp can claim reductions for several things (having a disabled child,travel,debt relating to the previous relationship and the such like) but the pwc cannot request more for those very same circumstances the only tool available to a pwc is if the nrp is lying or has diverted funds, further children the nrp has are deemed to be the problem of the pwc by reducing the nrp's liability but nothing the pwc does via the csa has the same impact on the nrp.

Obviously that's excluding pwc fraudulent actions.

So I'm in the boo fucking hoo camp.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

He can apply to have his travel costs to see his dd removed from his accessible income. Its one page on a form ONE page and about 4 questions.

They only argument the pwc has against this is if he lies about the distance there is nothing else she can do to stop him doing this.

[ChocHobNob]

The ex would not be able to get the arrears written off in these circumstances.

He would struggle to get them spread over a longer term.

I'm not getting into a debate on the fairness of the CSA when it comes to factors which are totally unrelated to the OP.

[RalphGnu]

Reading your OP back, it sounds like he didn't tell the CSA about his change of circumstance, or he would be more pissed off with them than with you, iyswim?

Like, " I bloody told them ages ago about my new job! This isn't right!" and going after them, rather than "Crap, they want more money than I'm prepared to give. Can't I just give you an extra pitiful amount instead?" and then issuing threats because you won't play ball.

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Choc, the point I'm making is that even if it's the CSA's fault these arrears have accrued, the ex here seems far from innocent, and making it the OP's problem, or responsibility to 'sort' doesn't suggest to me he has recourse with the CSA by claiming they should have acted on his update 3 years ago. He's an adult, it's not difficult to figure out the level of maintenance that should be paid for one child based on your salary level. So why sit back and do nothing about that? I don't buy the explanation that he could have been oblivious to his responsibility in this situation. And it's hardly the OP's responsibility is it? She's never been aware of his salary. But he's trying to make it be her responsibility, with a bit of emotional blackmail/using his DD to get out of a situation he is at least partly, if not wholly, responsible for.

He can be annoyed/upset/pissed off as much as he likes. But trying to make this the OP's fault/responsibility rather than deal with/speak to/plead poverty with the CSA? I just don't read this situation as being quite as bleak as he is trying to make it out to be. If that was the case, I'd imagine he'd reel off in detail the discussions/pleading he's made with the CSA, laying bare his dire finances with the OP in the hope she could help him come to an agreement. I'm not seeing that in the detail provided by the OP.

[ChocHobNob]

The absolutely ridiculous thing about this situation is IF
he did the correct thing and notified them of his change in his job, he'll get a lot of arrears to pay off which should have been spread over the last 3 years.

If he DIDNT tell them about his change in circumstances, as he was supposed to, he will not have to pay any arrears.

Welcome to the great way the CSA is run!

I hope it all gets sorted out OP and it doesn't affect your DD.

[ChocHobNob]

Tension, I have not disagreed that the ex's predicament is nothing to do with the OP.

[TheDoctrineOfPositivityYes]

Chn, that does seem bonkers.

[BrokenSunglasses]

I think we can all agree the CSA is not fit for purpose and that they are more than capable of creating problems that didn't need to exist.

Whether the ex has a moral obligation to pay the arrears depends on what he has paid for for his dd in addition to the CSA payments he has made. If he's made the payment required by the CSA, and also paid for or towards clothes, school uniforms, extra curricular activities or lessons, taken her abroad and such like, then I don't think he should have to pay the arrears. His payments should go up of course, but I don't really think it's fair that he has to pay arrears if he has been doing his duty to his child financially.

However if he's paid the CSA required amount and the only extra money he has spent has been on treats that he wanted to give, rather than on necessities for his dd, then it's absolutely right that he should be made to pay the arrears.

I don't know why HappyMummys post has been criticised. The best way to arrange these things often is with an informal arrangements where both parents contribute an equal amount to things the child actually needs, it's sad that parents need the help of an outside agency to do this. Unfortunately it's often needed because some parents are fuckwits, but when parents aren't fuckwits, I don't see anything wrong at all with splitting costs equally after CB and CTCs have been deducted. That's how my ex and I do it, except we agreed to put the CB into savings and I don't claim CTCs, so our costs are split equally without needing to take that into account.

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Sorry there were quite a few x-posts as I was typing. Your point about him not being liable if he hadn't told the CSA is actually a fair one, and just sums up how ridiculous their 'rules' are. Problem is, I think here the ex has simply sat back and done nothing after updating them, and that's why the arrears have accrued. That, and the CSA's failure to act on the information. Problem is, he knew his salary had increased, and given the info that's in the public domain about what he is liable for, I don't think he really can blame the CSA for this. Even if they didn't do anything at the time, he apparently never questioned it either. Unfortunately I don't think pleading ignorance would get him anywhere - something he's probably already been told by CSA. Hence him attempting to manipulate the OP to get him out of the hole he now finds himself in.