to wonder why the USA isn't taking a more forceful stance on Syria?

[holidaybug]

I don't profess to know or understand the full details but I am surprised that Obama isn't taking a stronger stance on this. Hasn't the line been crossed for sure now?

Rmeilan and Suwaidiyah are bing fought over now but as Nusra control the area around them and has already cut the pipe line it is only a matter of time and lives before these fall

Old news, there's been battles between Kurds and JAN since then, it's very much a situation in flux.

As for life under Assad...

Do you really think living under a regime which stole from you and denied you the right to make any criticism of them was nice? Where "behind the sun" was the euphemism for where you would be if the Mukhabarat got their hands on you? Where the joke was, that "even when you go to the dentist, you don't open your mouth".

Even in the UK, those with Syrian relatives would be scared to speak out, because they know they were being monitored.

Yes, of course things are terrible now, but don't forget, the Syrian people didn't for ask for war, they asked for reform and Assad responded by killing them.

The people would always have risen up one day, such regimes never last for ever. But such regimes are not meant to be allowed to behave with such unfettered brutality in the 21st century. Never Again and all that.

What they asked for and what they got are vastly different and doesn't change the fact that an islamist group is gaining more and more power whilst the civil war rages. They are not going to suddenly go away once Assad is gone and the very people who are fighting to over throw a dictator have another one, be it a islamic one growing stronger everyday within their own ranks.

The FSA want a free democratic state. We are agreed Yes? Nusra want an islamic state under shia law. Can you not see that there is no middle ground between them and once they have finished fighting Assad they are going to be fighting each other and when that time comes i would rather they were not doing it with weapons supplied by my taxes.

Now on that note i must go to bed. Been nice having a decent discussion on the matter even though we have different view points.

Shia, I think you mean Shariah. I would also dispute the no middle ground part, as more pragmatic outcomes become available.

One final disagreement:

No, it hasn't been nice having this discussion at all.

This is all extremely painful for me. This is two and a half years I've not been able to see some of my family for. Two and a half years since my daughter has played with her cousins. Two and a half years of my family suffering and they have been lucky compared to some. We've had one family member shot, another killed in shelling and another abducted by the regime.

And I've spent been discussing this situation with someone more concerned about their taxes.

No, that isn't nice.

Sorry about your family but why should i want my taxes to support a war that is none of my making and nothing to do with the west?

The west is condemned whatever we do. If we leave it for the arab world to sort out then we are heartless and should be taking action. if we take action we are interfering with the concerns of another nation and imposing western imperialism so quite frankly i am sick to the back teeth with the whole of the middle east and the so called arab spring. It is not the west killing Syrians so look towards your own people for the people responsible.

Because if you were in that situation (and it is mere accident of birth that you are not) you would want the outside world to help you.

That's why.

Thank you Gosh and Eldritch in particular for the informed comments and discussion. This thread has at least helped me u deer stand the situation and the options for intervention far better than the media has, and it also prompted me to donate to the disasters emergency committee as at least that is something I can do to help instead of sitting back and doing fa. I hope others will donate as well.

I do not want to be sent to fight in Syria. Nor do I want my brother or husband to be mobilised to go there. Perhaps I take a rather personal view - but for those calling for action then putting British or American boots on the ground is ultimately the result.

We didn't help the situation in Iraq, and Afghanistan was a disaster. Syria is far more complicated than them - so please don't push our politicians into a more forceful stance. .... unless you are offering to go there yourself.

Hezbollah (plus Assad et al) and Al-Qaeda (aka nusra front) are fighting each other in syria and the west is expected to intervene??? The common thread is that they hate the west! I do feel sorry for the innocent Syrians whose beautiful country has become the fighting ground for what's a regional battle now but you can't expect the west to militarily intervene in something that they'll never be able to get themselves out of.

The US cannot afford it that's why. They have $17 Trillion on the credit card and adding to that at a further $1 Trillion a year!

Obama has already borrowed as much as the previous 42 presidents combined. Congress wouldn't let him get involved in another conflict.

I thought it was obvious why the US isn't in Syria? Syria can't offer anything back and if it could then US would have to share some with China and Russia.

gosh it was me that said I can't understand why Assad would do this - but you miss the important word - NOW.
I can understand Assad would do it (understand is not the right word - maybe believe) - but not right NOW with the weapon inspectors just in his country...
To do something like that when you know the world will know about it, your international 'allies' will be put under intense pressure to stop supporting you and when, if I understand it correctly, they weren't backed into a corner and didn't stand to gain any real advantage in the war by doing it ...
He would know that there would be international condemnation AND the West would feel intense pressure to intervene and against him ...it just makes no sense from a political and military perspective if he wants to /thinks he can hold onto power...unless he thinks he can't and has nothing to lose...
I know we are incredibly lucky to live in this country - a peaceful democracy with freedom of speech and movement...I feel real sympathy for you and your family...
The western world do have to take some responsibility for what has happened in this region...as our previous interference has led to many of the current troubles.

Kungfutea

DO NOT accuse Me of antisemiticism.

I take great exception to that personal attack. You have no idea of my ethnicity or family history.

DO NOT presume to do so.

I DID NOT state that the Jewish communities supported a civil war.

I suggest you re-read my post and then apologise.

I should not have to spell it out to you (again) but

FACT: Syrian and Iran support Hizbollah's activities against Israel. A civil war that at least keeps Syria occupied internally reduces their ability to support Hizbollah's efforts against Israel.

FACT: There is an influential Jewish community in the US. They lobby just as other non-Jewish influential groups do. What's anti-Semitic about stating that?

In response to the question of why America was not interveningl I stated was that it suited America not to intervene in a war that America did not start and which was depleting Hizbollah's ability to harass Israel - which a lot of Americans have roots. That is not support in my book so I don't know how you can misinterpret it as such - unless you chose to do so. So if you have some particular axe to grind don't try to grind it on me.

People who try to turn every debate on here into searching for racsism that doesn't exist really piss me off. Go and witch hunt somewhere else.

I'm hiding this thread now as you have made me so bloody angry.

Crescentmoon - Exactly.

Kungfu - Syria is not Iran in 1979.

Those who are still talking as if troops are going to be sent there, that's not an option, nor what's under discussion. Afghanistan and Iraq are very different circumstances, so not worth conflating.

marking place as I'm learning a great deal

I know I'm probably being a bit thick but what is a no fly zone?

I'm really in 2 minds over whether the attack was carried out by Assad he doesn't seem to have anything to gain from it.

I think the west have to tread very carefully and the us going in all guns blazing could possibly draw Iran and other sympathetic countries into the conflict.

As much as I hate to say it I think it maybe the best course of action in the long run to do nothing.

A no fly zone is an area of sky which air craft are not permitted to fly over. It has to be enforced by someone so i assume if one was imposed on syria they would expect the US to enforce it from bases in Jordan.

The only way to enforce it would be to shot down any craft in the no fly zone and is only a very short step from having boots on the ground.

I think accusing WetAugust of Antisemitism for explaining realpoilitik is appalling. Reported.

No fly zone - area forbidden to Assad arcraft, no take offs allowed. If an aircraft in the deemed area takes off, it will be shot down. Either by SAM, or aircraft supplied,presumably, in this case by Nato. Or in a parallel universe where they gave a shit,the Saudis.

So, the West and America stay out of the messy political and on the ground interventions, the UN continue to bumble around being ineffectual and the humanitarian aid goes to support the refugees.
The majority of direct interventions don't seem to work, perhaps the ME Arabic communities and countries should be allowed to have a go at sorting out the issues which they understand more clearly than those that are not a part of it.

science.howstuffworks.com/no-fly-zone.htm

a very good over view on no fly zones, how effective they have been in the past and who would need to police it.

SilverApples Yes the whole sorry mess should be left to the Arab league but so far all they seem to do is monitor what is happening without getting involved.
They should be investigating the chemical attacks and they should be taking action against who ever is using chemical weapons. For once leave the west out of it. We have learnt our lesson is Iraq and Afghanistan.