In thinking this tickling is inappropriate

[Cococo]

BIL is staying with his dd (my dn) who is 10. She is sharing with my dd age six. Before bed my dn asks for tickles which BIL does all over her tummy, arms etc in quite a slow, strokey way. I'm sure it's completely innocent but makes me feel v uncomfortable. My dd is then begging me to tickle her like that which I am not going to do, and then her cousin says its ok, she will tickle her like that - luckily they fell asleep before any more tickling occurred but it has made me feel a bit sick. They are staying and the girls sharing a double bed for the week. Want to say something to bil but he will think I'm mad and probably be offended. Probably just sees it as something innocent that his dd likes. My DH thinks I am totally unreasonable and neurotic to even worry about it. What should I do/say?

[Meid]

I agree with Gamesetandmatch. If it makes you uncomfortable then trust your feelings over this.

I don't think the OP is suggesting that all tickling is inappropriate, just this particular tickling bothers her.

I think it is unfair to suggest the OP's reaction is sad. We can't, after all, see what she can see.

I don't think the OP should say anything. Not at all.

[digerd]

My DM sis and DD loved their feet being stroked - I hated it as was irritating. Also some older women liked friends to stroke their arms. I found it odd and weird. But for them it was soothing and nothing sexual.

[HollaAtMeBaby]

It would make me queasy as well, OP... I'm not a tactile person. It's not even that I think it's sexual, it just reminds me of animals grooming each other and it gives me the creeps when humans do things like that. But based on all the posts above, lots of people are into this so YWBU to say anything. But no need to feel pressured to do any of this weird shit feathery stroking with your own DCs if you don't want to.

[Whothefuckfarted]

hollyatme

Seriously? Weird shit?

Fuck you....

It's not weird, I'm offended by your post.

[ouryve]

I didn't know there was a name for it, but DS2 likes being stroked like this.

I can't stand it. Touch my arms, especially, like that and it takes a great deal of self control to not whack you. I'm very sensory defensive and it's just too strong a sensation for me.

[WhiteandGreen]

'Fuck you'

Really? Seems a bit strong.

[FrussoHathorAKADaisythecow]

ouryve like a burning sensation? I can't quite describe it, a bit like stroking sunburn with a sharp object.

[ThreesyDoesIt]

Say nothing op, it's sad that something so innocent between a father and child has made you this uncomfortable!! It's also sad that you don't allow this type of thing with your child.

My dh still gets me to do this most nights to his back to fall asleep, its something he's had done since he was a toddler.

Our dd3 loves either me or dh to do this to her back, it really relaxes her she goes into a wee tance and the expression on her face is adorable. She also loves us to do lots if little kisses over her back. She's 18 month'sand the thought of someone seeing this and thinking along the same lines as you is both sad and worrying that people can no longer see the innocence in something that comes natural to the vast majority of parents.

[nannynewo]

Yeah I agree YABU and have nothing to worry about! When I was a kid I used to jump into bed with my dad every night and watch a half hour or so programme while I gave him a back scratch and vice versa. He's be in his underpants! It definitely wasn't wrong or anything sexual in any way at all! Just a nice father daughter tradition.

[garlicagain]

GameSetAndMatch, I'm sorry you went through that. I think most posters have assumed this was innocent pleasure because the child asks for the 'tickles' and clearly enjoys it. I do hope you didn't feel obliged to feign enjoyment ... :(

Ouryve, I go through phases of being 'burny' like that! As a rule, I'm sensory seeking (and deprived) but, when I'm run down, my skin can feel like the nerve endings are much too close to the surface ... at those times, light touches are miles worse than firm ones. At the same times, whispering irritates me in a 'hurty' way, too! Aggravates me, that's what my Gran would have said :)

[OxfordBags]

Um, Holla, this weird shit you describe is one of the major ways that has made the human race become what we are now. We stroke each other and the like precisely because we are animals who evolved the ability to make connections with other through our way of grooming. Thinking it is weird for humans to be like other mammals when it comes to very basic things is what's weird. Does breathing, eating, sleeping, voiding one's bladder or bowels, etc., count as weird when humans do it? I just don't get that mindset.

[Cococo]

Just to clarify, I would not have been weirded out had the stroking just been on the face, head, back, arms etc - it was the fact that it was ALL over a child's body, pulling up night clothes, over inner thigh, chest area etc. I did think it was innocent but thought inappropriate as I think it is possible to feel sexual pleasure from this. Just wondered where people think the line is? You say it is appropriate for a parent to do this, but could an aunt/uncle/teacher do this because a child has asked them to? Someone mentioned that they used to ask their father to 'excite their body all over' and someone else that they had a more 'intimate' friendship with a male friend because they would stroke each other in bed during sleepovers. While I'm sure those were completely innocent, it does sound like they were experiencing their first intro to what sexual contact might be like. I'm sure you lot will give me a bashing and tell me I am sad or weird for even thinking this, but would be interested to know where others would draw the line. Is it only if a child says no, but as long as they are enjoying it or ask to be stroked in that way then you are sayng it is fine?

[urtwistingmymelonman]

my mum used to do this to my back when I was a child and if she stopped I would nag her to carry on!
my nine year old son now loves me to do this to him.
how is it any different to a nice relaxing massage?

[Sianilaa]

I used to ask my dad to do that on my back as a child, it always sent me to sleep. I now nag my DH to do it :)

My children also love it and constantly nag me to do it to them too! As a baby, I used to stroke his forehead and nose if he cried and it soothed him. He still asks me to do it at bedtime. It's lovely. I hope he still asks me when he's grown up :)

[babyboomersrock]

Just to clarify, I would not have been weirded out had the stroking just been on the face, head, back, arms etc - it was the fact that it was ALL over a child's body, pulling up night clothes, over inner thigh, chest area etc

I have to say, OP, I've been surprised that everyone thought that the stroking of the areas you mentioned was ok. My children always loved the stroking thing - but, in common with most posters' stories here, it was confined to the back, shoulders and head areas as they got older.

I do think it's quite unusual to be stroking a 10 year old child on the tummy, chest etc. Many 10 year old girls will have budding breasts - is the father going to announce one day that he can't do it any more? Far better to have a natural, gradual acceptance that some parts of the body are more "private" than others.

As a family we are very cuddly, and my children would ask me to massage their heads/shoulders even when they were in their teens, but there are natural cut-off times for certain kinds of touch. I'd blow rasberries on my babies' or toddlers' tummies, but not my 10 year olds', for example.

[ExtremeCouponQueen]

Going against the grain here and saying yanbu. I dont like the sounds of any parent softly stroking intimate body parts of a 10 yr old like you've described. Intimately stroking inner thighs imo is inappropriate whether the child likes it or or not.

I think the use of the word tickle has made these actions more legitimate than perhaps they could be.

[garlicagain]

While I'm sure those were completely innocent, it does sound like they were experiencing their first intro to what sexual contact might be like.

I'm glad you stated this, Coco, as I'm unlikely to be the only other poster who finds it interesting. The lines between different kinds of physical excitement are ever so blurred - and where do you draw the demarcations for sexual contact, assuming we want them quite far ahead of genital involvement?

I tend to feel the girl's response will change when she first feels a 'grown-up' sexual reaction, and the tickling thing will then stop or be modified. But I don't know if that's reliable. Children do understand the "wrong touch" thing, as a rule, but there are lots of exceptions.

Muddying the waters still further, I've just remembered the tongue-licking craze that characterised my primary school years. We licked each other's tongues like loons but, at various points with different children, it would just start to feel wrong and yukky, so gradually petered out as more & more children felt that way.

[GameSetAndMatch]

Thank you Garlic. I did try and tell someone but was told I was making it up! and yes i had to pretend I enjoyed it.

Op the way you described the 'tickling' as to where she was being touched just sounds wrong, and the fact he was doing that in front of you and your child frankly sickens me as if he thinks theres nothing wrong.

and what babyboomer said in her last post.

[IfNotNowThenWhen]

Yeah, I actually can see where you are coming from OP.
I used to do this kind of stroking with girlfriends at 10/11/12, and it was a sort of intro to sexual touching. My first inkling of sexual feelings happened during this kind of stroking.
That is totally normal, and fine between children. The road to sexual maturity is long and gradual, and stroking and intimacy among children is innocent-they are at the same level iyswim.
However, a father stroking his 10 yr old dd's inner thigh and chest??
His intentions may be innocent, but I think it's creepy if her first feelings of a type of sexual enjoyment are generated by her father.
My family is huggy and kissy etc, but no adult ever stroked my inner thighs at ten.(or in fact at any age)
It's also a fact that children who are sexually abused by trusted and loved adults often do experience sexual feelings from the inappropriate touching as they enter puberty, and that this very fact just adds to the later feelings of shame and guilt.
I am not saying that OP's BIL is a molester, but I do find it very odd, and can understand her discomfort.

[babyboomersrock]

I'm interested to know whether any of the earlier posters (not the last few) have changed their minds about this?

I know the OP has added further details in her latest post, but even so - what most posters were describing as "normal" stroking was not what the OP described - she said clearly in her first post that the father was stroking the 10 year old daughter all over her tummy. The fact that the daughter asked him to do this, and that it was in public, is irrelevant.

Most posters then described the sort of stroking/tickling which happened with my children too - on the back, the arms, head, etc - I don't think anyone else described stroking a 10 year old on the front of the body. I'm amazed that no-one could see the difference.

As for the OP's concern about her 6 year old daughter sharing a bed with this 10 year old and perhaps experiencing this "tickling" - OP, you're right to be concerned. As a child of your daughter's age, I was allowed to share a bed with a cousin who was 3/4 years older and believe me, I really needed a mother to care for me the way you care for your child.

On most parts of MN, posters will tell you to trust your instincts. I'm not sure why this thread has been different.

[Quaffle]

I have.

Stroking backs/arms - fine.

Tummy - borderline.

Inner thighs - no no no.

[thornrose]

Hmm, I'm seeing it in a different way now than when I was on the thread earlier.

Tummy is fine IMO but inner thighs seems far too intimate!

[ViviPru]

This thread has played on my mind a bit as I can't help but feel the OP has had a bit of a rough ride but I've not been able to fathom my own perspective clearly enough to contribute. But in light of recent posts I agree that the crucial thing is there IS a line.

In my own experience, I've never experienced growing up (in a close, tactile family) the 'feathery stroking' described here, so I empathise with the OPs bewilderment, I had no idea how common it was. My only identification with this is remembering how I would launch myself on my Dad as a child and demand a back scratch, which was a vigorous nail-scratch confined to the back that would evoke in me the rapturous response as describe by other posters on the thread. Close and enjoyable, but utterly innocent.

It's IfNotNows post which strikes a chord. I too remember vividly this form of touching going on among girlfriends from age 10 upwards and there was a definite blurred line between innocent bonding and the very first stirrings of sexual awareness. I remember feeling uncomfortable with it then and not getting involved, but this was probably partially due to not being familiar with it from my parents. I also remember around the age of 9/10 one girl confessing that she was upset that another girl was always stroking her arm and she didn't like it but was scared to say anything.

I also agree that it is crucially down to which areas of the body are involved and at what age. Chest and inner thighs being accessed under the pyjamas at age 10 does feel like it's crossed the line to me, even if the intention is completely innocent.

[DanceLikeJohnTravoltaNow]

I posted upthread saying YWBU to say anything, but in light of the most recent post the inner thigh thing would bother me. For me, tummies and belly buttons are ok, inner thighs and chest are not ok for a 10 year old.

[ouryve]

Inner thighs definitely a no no. If the boys have restless legs, I will squeeze and knead their thighs at the sides, above the knee, but it's a pain relieving, rather than an actively pleasurable sensation.

I was wearing a bra at 10.