What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

Curlew,

I've linked above to scientific evidence demonstrating the benefits. I'm sorry you don't agree and I respect that but the evidence is specific not vague.

The WHO doesn't agree.

I've explained above why male circumcision is not mutilation and why female and male circumcision are not comparable. You just prefer the word because it's more emotive.

No, it was directed at me.

As you know nothing about me but am surmising I am not Jewish, then you have no idea whether I am 'part of a minority persecuted for millenia'.

So no need to be snarky.

Please link to the WHO report which refutes the stated benefits of circumcision.

If you are Jewish, snatchoo, then you'd understand how important circumcision is as part of a Jewish identity.

I never made any reference to your own background.

You may be a satmar chassid for all I know.

If a procedure has to be done for medical reasons then it should be done in a hospital under anaesthetic.

if its mutilation of a baby, without medical reasons or without anaesthetic then the practitioner and the parents should be prosecuted for child abuse. that includes male/ female genital mutilation.

The WHO has only ever said that there is a compelling case for circumcision protecting against HIV. That is the only concrete health benefit. There is a vary slight protection against penile cance- which is incredibly rare. There is some protection for women against cervical cancer. But the same protection can be given by proper hygiene- and better protection can be given by HPV vaccination.

I would not want a son of mine to rely on being circumcised to protect him from HIV or any other sexually transmitted disease.

You are correct - I don't get it.

I never will. I think it is bizarre to say the least.

And apologies, I assumed your response was to me and not to everyone.

Can you link to this report CUrlew?

While I can't argue with the evidence that is seems very helpful in reducing HIV and Aids, it can hardly be cited as a good reason for doing it historically, given that HIV and Aids is a very modern problem and overwhelmingly affects countries most where the majority of the population are neither neither Jew nor Muslim.

Prevention of HIV would hav been no justification at all for 99.99% of the times where this has been being routinely practiced.

The WHO and other medical groups have said there is not enough evidence of benefits to recommend circumcision as routine.

It has a place as a medical treatment and in some areas to help lessen the spread of HIV. My children do not have any issues with their foreskins and will be taught how to protect themselves against HIV and other STDs. It is not in their best interests, its not recommended as routine because of this.

Also it may lower chances of contracting HIV but actually raises their chances of contracting other STDs.

Medical evidence does not show enough benefits for me to choose to circumcise my sons.

You're the one citing medical benefits, lungful- you tell me what they are!

Sorry, kungfu- not lungful!

And mentioning persecution of a minority in an attempt to gain sympathy doesn't work for me

The persecution of a minority group is fact and not an attempt gain sympathy but rather to explain the need for a sense of community and a solidarity in religious/cultural/traditional values.

You will find very few Jews who would use the attrocities of the Shoah to gain any kind of sympathy.

Not an attempt to gain sympathy.

But possibly an attempt to shut down debate? I have no idea what it's like to be part of a persecuted minority. But if I was, I hope that I would have the strength to resist peer pressure. There are many ways to show identity and allegiance to a religion/culture that so not involve needless surgery on people unable to consent.

This is pointless.

There is no debate here, just round and round the same tired arguments.

Guess it's hard to understand if it's not your culture and you haven't been part of a minority persecuted for millenia
I thought you were an atheist?!

Lowry - I agree this is pointless. It reminds me of the very funny How to Be Persuasive guide. I think most if not all techniques described in the guide are illustrated on this thread.

Primafacie

Biting

Biting is a last ditch effort. You use this tactic when the other person has been given every opportunity to conform to your opinion and still refuses. It is normally best to go for an important artery or organ. The jugular vein is recommended, as it is located roughly at mouth height.

(sorely tempted )

I though the reasons removing foreskin prevents - doesn't completely exclude but dramatically reduces - HIV transmission was because the foreskin does have an evolutionary function.

It takes foreigner infections transmitted via sex to the immune system for inspection. Great for many things - the worst thing with HIV virus.

I image circumcision is more common in US as a cultural thing. I did see in ER episode Benson talking to his ex Carla about getting his son circumstanced - and he cites all these medical reason she shot back with - If you want your son's pensis to look like his Daddies then tell me that don't blind me with science.

It's not something I'd want for my DS - but I image if it routine you question it less perhaps not a good thing.

This really picked up speed. I have read each and every reply and have yet to see a reason for circumcising a healthy penis. STDs and HIV can be reduced with correct use of condoms,HPV with the vaccine,cleanliness with teaching boys how to properly care for their penis,masturbation,well there's nothing wrong with it.
The poster who said an intact penis turns her stomach,well that's your issue.
A sense of belonging,looking like Daddy. Personally I think the whole circumcision and Abraham thing was so to prevent infection and thus ensuring the survival of the Jews (don't forget this was milenia ago,in the desert/areas of dense dryness). It would hardly be necessary nowadays considering the availability of water,sanitation,antibiotics in the developed world.
Its best to do it at newborn,well it would be better for the healthy,problem free penises (penii??) to not have parts of it removed at all,no?
Of course men who have had circumsitions done since they were newborn do not know what they are missing,the same as a person born with a part of their body missing doesn't know what they are missing.

And Apple you will see I corrected my mistake in my first post,so that post was pointless.

Kungfutea - you have no idea whether any of the other posters come from a minority persecuted for millenia. It really is possible to come from such a group and be against circumcision, for example www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/.

I still find it odd that given the option to pick and choose the bits of religion you follow, you would choose that one. Particularly since the person it impacts most can't consent. And doubly so if you don't even believe.

BS - you'd struggle to find 10 practising Jews in the entire membership of jews against circ, I suspect. Most of them are people like Mrs R or Tee 2072 who, having given up the religion (which is of course their right) are now complaining from the sidelines.

You'd probably choose a brit even if not observant because (a) without a brit, you would struggle at a Jewish school or youth group, for example (b) the punishment in Jewish law for not doing it is very serious, far more than for eating cheeseburgers; and (c) it gives your child the opportunity to take the religion more seriously later without going through surgery as an adult, and to marry someone Jewish, which is also important to many people, if if not especuially religious themselves.

What is the difference between someone who has given up the religion and one who is an atheist but continues with bits of it? They both "come from a minority persecuted from millenia".