What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

Have I done that Mary?

1. stoning children for adultery...well I am sure some of them would have been children still by our reckoning

1. Having sex with 9 year old girls

Hair over the temples thing????? I have to leave this thread now it is too maddening. I have to imagine you are not terribly bright Icey.

No, Sam did. That was her first 2 posts after and in response o my first two posts this morning. I could only object if I hate Jews and objecting means I'm a member or certainly of the persuasion of the EDL or the BNP.

Appletarts, your post about how the boy would feel if he wasn't circumcised. There wouldn't be any problem would there, if all boys were given the choice on coming of age? There would be no problems, no ostracising, no being banned from school.

If it all stops then no issues, surely?

Ditto - thanks, Apples. And where does this 90% idea come from? It just depends who you count as Jewish. If a man marries out, then his kids aren't Jewish by orthodox standards, so what he does with them is neither here nor there. I suppose he could not have a brit and then join a liberal shul with them, but that would be pretty exceptional. And if the parents didn't join any shul or show any interest in the community, it's unlikely their child would be counted even if technically Jewish. I wasn't brought up especially religious and have friends of a wide variety of observance, and only know of one who failed to have a brit for her son, though for all I know she had it done privately.

NamechangingNorma the people are not evil - the people have been brainwashed over millenia and do thing unquestioned, on automatic pilot, like sheep. The practice is evil, unnecessary and (in poor countries with poor sanitation and no access to anaesthesia) can be very dangerous, and indeed life threatening.

My DS was circ'ed aged 10 on medical grounds. His surgeon told me that his bread and butter business is repairing botched circumcisions done at birth in a ritual context rather than a medical one.

Brainwashed? Ha ha ha what like terrorists? oh and by the way op it is there not their.

The EDL comment was a grumble about suggesting that everyone who has their child circ'ed is a bad person. I said that this is the sort of generalisation would go down well with the EDL, and it still seems odd to me to condemn a third of the world's population in this way. As has been commented before, most people have a slightly more nuanced take on things....

Er..no, not like terrorists. What a very odd thing to say.

Mary, to be fair your post was very offensive. The reference to 'we, as a civilised country' directly implies that you exclude (or would prefer to exclude) from 'your' country anyone who practises circumcision. It also implies that such people are not civilised, which is offensive and quite simply, wrong. If you use that sort of language, you can't be surprised that some people will conclude you are intolerant.

Op I'd be annoyed you'd nicked my Frigg if you weren't using it for such good

Circumcision is utterly barbaric for any reason other than medical need.
Religion is a pile of crap IMO,and people often hide behind it in order to inflict pain and suffering upon others.

It is child abuse,and should be punished as such.

Bingo! :)

Prima I think there is enough information out there for me to have a reasonable knowledge of what it entails thank you. How about you lie still (or I'll get some kind and caring people to hold you down, or tie you to a board) and I'll slice off a bit of each eyelid or perhaps an earlobe for you with a razorblade, and I'll get a friend to photograph it all. Then we can discuss whether or not your reaction to the pain and the fear of being restrained was 'normal', or just the result of silly propaganda material.

or how about your outer labia and clitoris? After all you'd look so much neater and cleaner without them.

Circumcision at best reduces the risk of UTI (which is easily treated with antibiotics) by 1%.
It is questionable whether it reduces the risk of sexually transmitted infection due to the exceptionally poor quality of many of the studies available.
It does reduce the risk of HIV in developing countries but if you teach your son to use a condom the risk of contracting HIV is tiny.
And the risk of penile cancer even in a higher risk population group is extremely low
Surely removing a part of your son's body without his consent in order to reduce these miniscule risks is overkill. This is nothing like vaccination where the risks of illness are so much higher and the risks of the procedure so much lower.
And parents who are so interested in their son's genitals to be concerned about their appearance are frankly creepy.

As for religion well that is harder to eradicate but plenty of people claim FGM is part of their religion even though no religion officially endorses it and we ban that, even the 'milder' forms like removal of the clitoral hood which could be seen as similar to circumcision.
Children aren't of any religion even if their parents consider them to be. If circumcision was outlawed then it would likely become traditional that adult males would choose to join their religion if they wished by becoming circumcised. Nobody would feel left out because noone would be circumcised and the child would be protected from having his body permanently and irreversibly altered in the name of a religion he may never practice.

By 'we as a civilised society' I meant our lawmakers. I stand by my post saying that there is no justification for it still to be a legal practice other than the fact that making it illegal would simply force it underground. It does not align me with fascists because my viewpoint have nothing whatsoever to do with the reasons why people choose to circumcise.

And namechangingnorma talks about the practice being at your core but wasn't it far more widespread for men to refuse to shake hands with a woman in case she was menstruating many years ago? Now only the most orthodox of Jews still observe this. It is a fast dying out belief. Why can't circumcism go the same way. If you all waited until your son was old enough to choose there would be no cultural pressure.

I agree Fellatio, there is plenty of information out there. I just don't think you have read any of it. Have you read the meta data analysis? The WHO-backed studies on HIV transmission? The studies on pleasure before and after? Do you know what the risks actually are?

When you refer to ritual circumcision, i sense you have in mind some nutter with a rusty kitchen knife, sucking blood from a baby's penis. This is just not how it is done - are you so naive (or ignorant of the stereotype ) that you think Jewish mums don't love their sons as much as you do yours?

X posts there.

apple many people have come to the conclusion I am kinda dim...particularly while I was getting my degree and PhD at oxbridge....

"Payot are worn by some men and boys in the Orthodox Jewish community based on an interpretation of the Biblical injunction against shaving the "corners" of one's head."

Yup it is definitely me that sounds dimwitted here....uhuh...."Biblical injunction against shaving the "corners" of one's head." may contain in one sentence the best evidence in existence that organised religion is a sham.

But my point was lots of men used to do this...now only the proper hardliners do. why would circumcision not go the same way?

In 50 years only the hardliners will a) care if a boy is circumcised. b) circumcise their own kids.

In 100 years no one will on account of it being illegal.

I am sure that all mums love their sons. I think they can and should be encouraged to find a different way to express that love than marking their children as property of religion X.

But plenty are attacked with a rusty kitchen knife Prima - I am sure many millions of muslim and jewish boys have experienced just that - maybe just not in leafy Stanmore. Just because in your community you may have come up with apparently less barbaric ways to do it does not justify the act in the least.

By all means if circumcision is a great idea for the prevention of Aids then offer ADULT men a programme of circumcision under anaethesia. How many grown men do you suppose would volunteer for the wonderful and potentially life saving procedure it using the same method as is used for babies?

And if you have daughters I wonder if you have considered having their breasts removed as soon as they have grown, to prevent the very real risk of breast cancer? After all we can all manage without breasts.

And of course I don't think Jewish mothers love their sons less - I just think they never really allow themselves to question the practice in a truly balanced and reasoned way, because the consequences of realising that you want to keep your child entact are just too mind-blowingly awkward for you.

its a piece of skin, not something you need to feed children, not something you need for sexual pleasure, not something you need to hear or function. The analogies are ridiculous.

I disagree. OK the argument for BFing holds up, but what about reomving them as soon as you've finished your family? Every woman? After all you can still have a sex life without tits, just as you can still have a sex life without a foreskin. It may be slightly altered, but so what? Think of all the lives that would be saved!

How about pulling out our teeth to prevent decay and pain, and just eating blended food? Think of all the pain and gum disease that could be avoided!

And of course no-one really needs their outer labia do they? Clearly not, as plenty of girls get theirs sliced off by Granny.