This Ramadan fasting ...[title edited by MNHQ]

[Wuldric]

I have a talented and lovely junior who happens to be Muslim. In the last month she has recorded 6 days off sick, and left work early on three additional occasions as she has fainted.

I don't have any personal bias against any form of religion. Well that's not actually true. Being an atheist, I am biased against all forms of religion, But I am balanced against all of them equally IYSWIM. Lest you all accuse me of xenophobia or something, I am not white and was not born in the UK. I am just impatient with this.

She has no weight to spare to start with. She cannot eat until after dusk. Dusk is pretty late in the UK in summertime. So in the evening she eats at 10. She is supposed to eat before dawn rises although my suspicion is that she is skipping this meal, because in her home it takes place at 3am. She is not allowed so much as a drink of water in between times. The offices are airconditioned, but her home and her journey to work are not.

This fasting tomfoolery is making my lovely junior ill. She looks like a famine victim - her face is just gaunt. It is not good for her. AIBU to think this is all nonsense?

Ramadan ends Aug 8 this year. Today, in London, sunrise is 05:30 and sunset is 20:42 so that is something over 15 hours fasting.

I'm not religious, but I respect, almost envy, those who are.

I came across a very interesting NHS leaflet the other day at a clinic, detailing Ramadan and advice on a person's health during fasting. Googled and found something similar which may interest others

Article

It is not unreasonable as a supervisor to speak to an employee about taking regular days off or fainting at work. It's a duty of care issue in the work

"Junior, I'm becoming concerned about your frequent absences and fainting at work, as your supervisor I have a duty of care in the workplace." You can then advise her to seek the advice of her doctor and religious leaders as to how she should proceed. You could allow her time off during the working day to go and see them and discuss it if you think she is open to it.

Well, I have worked in the middle east for years with people fasting in 50 degrees heat, yet I have never seen anyone faint.

The junior is being paid to do a job, which she isn't doing very well at the moment. At my place of work a line manager would be making enquiries to see what was going on if all this happened and if not resolved the matter would be referred through to HR.

We have many muslim staff where I work but daylight hours are 7 to 7 all year round so everyone seems to cope ok.

Wuldric I have managed someone with an eating disorder and I would urge you to get help to raise it with her.I know you say you can't talk about weight in a work context but this can be a fatal illness and so I believe you (or HR, or OT) should. I do realise that, for her, it's time-limited (hopefully) but the issue should be raised with her - as I think you suggested, once she's eating and drinking during the day again.
This is a health issue and if she needs permission to eat, or even just drink water it sounds, from what others have said, as though it shouldn't be a problem to get it. Alternatively she needs to manage her eating more effectively during the non-fast period - maybe by eating more than she normally does. It should be possible, with the care you obviously have for her, to raise with her honestly your concern, which is that she isn't eating enough and it's affecting her health. Good luck.

GoshAnneGorilla

Sidesho - This thread has been full of Muslims talking about how they feel about Ramadan and how they practice it. Channel 4 been showing daily Ramadan diaries showing Muslims across the UK during Ramadan, so for you to say that Ramadan is not compatible with modern life sounds rather arrogant and ill informed.

Just because it's taking place, that doesn't mean it's compatible with 'modern life'. I'm sure that plenty of people on here with a leftist bent would say that fox hunting and the monarchy are two things which take place in the UK and which they view as incompatible with modern life.

Sounds pretty daft to me. It seems to be affecting her ability to do her job to a serious extent.

Religious beliefs aren't comparable with being pregnant

Nobody's died yet of fasting?

I'll bet everything I have that thousands of people have died as a direct result of fasting over Ramadan. What about all those people in countries with poor healthcare provision who may have fasted with undiagnosed diabetes and had a hypo coma? What about all the people throughout history who have fasted in 40 or 50 degree heat and had to work outside all day without water?

As I said upthread, there are people who die indirectly as a result of fasting too. Living in the Middle East our newspaper carries headlines along the lines of 'Ramadan death count on the roads this year is now up to 16.' They fully expect there to be many more deaths on the road during Ramadan. It's a big talking point.

I'm not sure one solitary example of ill-advised fasting could be used as evidence that Ramadan is incompatible with "modern" life. Are Muslims and modernity mutually exclusive? And what is your definition of "modern life"?

I think intolerant atheists are incompatible with modern life. You're giving the rest of us atheists a bad name.

I don't get this - Ramadan allows people to meet their work obligations.

It doesn't sound correct to me OP.

I'm an atheist but I'm shocked at some of the comments on this thread - so narrow minded and unimaginative. To a Muslim passionate about their faith Ramadan is a time full of meaning and joy and I imagine that fasting is spiritually very enriching. Just because I can't share people's faith it doesn't mean I can't try to imagine and respect the role it plays in their lives.

OP - have some respect for your colleague's spirituality - it is central to her life and her world view.

I think it sounds ridiculous, not because it can't be a 'lovely' thing (if you say so) but because it bollocks up everyone else's life/work schedule/resources if you can't do your job properly.

I hate anything that religion proscribes for the same reason...making people unhappy isn't presumably what any of the Gods intended, yet somehow in the cause of religion, it's fine to be homophobic, or upset everyone or make yourself too ill to pull your weight.

Fiiiine

Being xenophobic is not a prerogative of white people. It's an intolerance of someone who is different to you. The OP is basically being an intolerant bigot. Your muslim collegue is not being muslim AT you! She is practicing her faith as she has a right to, whether you like it or not. If she's not fasting properly then that is between her, her imam and her GP - it is NOT your business and you should keep your intolerant views to yourself.

After checking this out apparently you're allowed to end the fast for the day if you become ill. You're also allowed to make up the days at a later time. Someone probably knows a lot more about this than me ...

I had a junior that suffered the same way with his fasting, it was awful to watch and from an employer point of view it was blooming annoying as he was useless!

Thankfully he'd give up after about a week though!

Interesting comment-

"Alternatively, if she wishes to fast but is finding her work schedule difficult, then she should take annual leave"

A staff member on my ward recently refused to take annual leave when I suggested it- as a way to meet the requirements of Ramadan.

She refused and suggested that I find her some 'light duties' to do.

I'm bemused at the thought that it's ok to fast if it's a diet and all about self improvement -- but not if it's something you do for God.

People who are saying that keeping Ramadan is incompatible with the modern world have a western-centric idea of what the modern world is all about. And there are lots of demands that the western modern world makes that we might think are ridiculous or harmful -- keeping up with the latest must-have consumer item, for example, trying to fashion yourself into the latest ideal of beauty by starving or surgery.

In that context, spending a month where you practice something that is hard so that you can be thankful for what you have, and see things more clearly, and celebrate together at the end of the day. Well, that doesn't seem ridiculous at all when you compare it to Botox, and vajazzles, and eyelash weaving, and 5:2 fasting, and IPhones and new cars and so on, and so on ... perhaps more of us could do with a month in the year when we deliberately made do with less so that we can reassess our lives and see what is really important.

I feel surprised and depressed by the nasty ignorant hostility in the OP and some of the responses. It has been lovely this year that there have been so many opportunities for non-Muslim, religiously ignorant people (like me) to find out more about Ramadan and get some glimpses into the lives of Muslim people during this special month. It's a shame to think there are people who prefer to remain ignorant and intolerant.

I've really enjoyed the Ramadan Diaries spot that comes on for a few minutes after Channel Four news. Very warm and interesting. One of the episodes was about a senior surgeon who spoke about combining fasting with a continuing dedication to do his demanding work to the highest standards. That worked well for him -- in fact he said his focus felt better during Ramadan. And his non-Muslim colleagues all felt happy and positive about his work. The woman the OP speaks about is just not managing well, and has no religious obligation to fast if it is making her ill.

How about reining in the hatred that comes from ignorance and a closed mind? Especially in a month where so many Muslims are working hard to develop and act on their sense of duty and community, in a spirit of charity and love.

OP, I think despite Ramadan ending this week, you should speak to your junior or refer them to OH.

I spent years working in a place where we had visiting muslims who observed Ramadan, and as it was residential, we arranged for food to be available at the appropriate times. Very few of the visitors were ill during Ramadan and their illnesses were not due to fasting.

I am concerned that your junior is ill, she may have an illness that is being made worse by the fasting, rather than the fasting being the cause.

It does need looking into, as she may end up being ill beyond the end of Ramadan. Fainting 3 times and having 6 other days off sick is very unusual if it is due to fasting.

I am so with you on this.

There are 7 fasts in the jewish calendar, 2 major fasts (sunset to sunset) and 5 minor fasts (sunrise to sunset). The two major fasts I take the days as my annual leave. The minor fasts, if they are on a work day, I fast until lunchtime only (no breakfast) but I would not get up in the night.

Totally not reasonable on your employer to fast when you are in paid employment if it impairs your performance at all - even if you have fat to spare (I have some!) not drinking when you get up in the morning as a significant impact on performance.... I have tried fasting at work in the past, but even though I fast well (never feel faint etc) I still get a splitting and feel starving from around 2-3pm.

FWIW when I was breastfeeding I was giving a leniency to drink. I just drank water (although could have drunk apple juice / milk) and I was totally fine - so I think unless you are underweight to start with I think its the lack of fluids and not the lack of food thats the problem.

I think the solution would be to offer Muslims unpaid leave for Ramadan - like parenting leave.

I don't mind what people do in the cause of religion if it doesn't upset anyone else.

I'm cross about this only in a personal sense - I have a Catholic mother who is so obsessed with the rules of the church that she is frequently making people uncomfortable and sometimes very unhappy.

I recognise that most religious people don't do this sort of thing.

i wondered why many muslims seemed keen to practise ramadan. my muslim friend explained why it was special to her. how it gave her a chance to relect and think of others and appreciate what she has in this world of plenty. also a challenge and to make her feel strong and cleansed and stengthens her family and community bond. my catholic friend uses lent for similar but to a much leser degree. it mae sense when she explained her feelings about it.

Meant to add my admiration and support for all the fasting Muslims on the thread, and best wishes for the happy Eid soon to come.

Well, you know I am an atheist. So I am pretty disrespectful of most religions tbh. I consider them all to be nonsensical. And in fact mostly misogynistic in practice. That's my belief system and I tried to make that clear in the OP.

Well, I hate to break this to you, but atheism is a religious choice you have made - that is your religion, as you say "belief system" and you are being disrespectful to other religions by making these casual, odious remarks. Maybe you are not insightful/tolerant enough to be in charge of other people with varying beliefs - have you considered that?