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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to make myself believe in god?

999 replies

HopHopHopSkip · 25/07/2013 22:55

I have always been very logical and so despite going to a Christian primary school, having a very religious mum(though not in a pushy way) and reading the bible when I was younger(the story version Grin I was a bit of a book worm) I have never really got my head around how god could be possible.

But I really wish I had the extra "something" that some people seem to find by believing in god. I'm probably not making much sense, but I wish I could get myself to feel like there's somebody watching out, that there's something after death, that everything happens for what'd ultimately a good reason/what's meant to be so on.

AIBU to try going to church for a bit even though I don't believe in god? Or am I just being silly, is it something you can't 'make' yourself feel?

OP posts:
headinhands · 28/07/2013 23:00

Or evidence for a spiritual realm?

headinhands · 28/07/2013 23:05

But you're not making a remarkable claim when you say that your husband loves you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If someone really doubted your husband loved you they could observe his behaviour. They could even watch the low part of his brain fire up on MRI when showing him photos of you.

headinhands · 28/07/2013 23:05

*love

headinhands · 28/07/2013 23:08

And other people could observe his kindness towards you. The evidence would be repeatable to whoever wanted to see it.

niminypiminy · 28/07/2013 23:16

Kindness and love aren't the same thing - but even so, their observations will be simply their own experience. And MRI scans are not yet able to detect the very subtle and complex phenomena of human emotions.

But I am making an extraordinary claim when I say he loves me: sacrificial love is one of the most extraordinary phenomena we know of - and, of course, for Christians, it is a phenomenon that originates in and is evidence for, God. We love, because he first loved us.

claig · 28/07/2013 23:16

'The mathematician has been trained to solve the equation.'

You can train some people till the cows come home but they will still never be able to solve it because they can't comprehend the steps necessary. We are not talking about robots or machines, we are talking about the magical human mind that can make leaps in logic and thought that a robot could not dream of, if it could even dream at all. And some people are more gifted and more perceptive and can make greater leaps than others.

Some people are better musicians than others, some are better at sport and some have a greater propensity to experience the spiritual than others.

headinhands · 28/07/2013 23:20

But that's all happening within the brain. You only have to look at people with brain injuries to see all that acquired ability lost. Where is your evidence for this spiritual gift/realm?

headinhands · 28/07/2013 23:27

Google MRI + emotions. They can and are being used to map our feelings.

claig · 28/07/2013 23:36

"Where is your evidence for this spiritual gift/realm?"

You only have to go to church or listen to people who tell you why or read accounts of spiritual and religious experiences, or experience gnosis for yourself.

How do you think that the martyrs withstood the pain as they were tortured and refused to recant and bend to the will of their inquisitors. Their spirit was so strong, their love of God was so strong that it overrode and eclipsed their bodily pain. They were in a different dimension, a spiritual dimension and their bodily suffering was momentary and temporal and unreal compared to the infinite, timeless, endless realm in which their minds dwelt as they communed with the divine. that is teh power of the spirit, to rise above bodily pain, to transcend the earthly and teh mundane and move into a spiritual, divine realm where there is no longer any mortal suffering, but just heavenly peace and bliss.

Not one of teh materialists MRI scanners would be able to record any of that and no person looking through a telescope would be able to make sense of any of it, because it is beyond matter, it is in the measureless separate dimension of the spirit and the divine and all their mechanical contraptions will never be able to capture an iota of what happens there.

claig · 28/07/2013 23:48

It is called physics because it can only deal with the physical - it is limited to the physical.

Above physics as the Queen of the Sciences is mathematics - pure abstract thought - and the Queen of them all is philosophy and its subpart of metaphysics which goes beyond physics into the spiritual realm.

springytoto · 28/07/2013 23:55

Perhaps a function of poverty is that people do need a vision for hope, and the message of religion is all about being on a journey towards a better place

I wouldn't agree with the 'function' of poverty but can't help wondering if a positive of poverty could be that people get the drift that we're all weak and vulnerable, and have zero control over what can happen in our lives. People who are 'wealthy' (which is relative, of course) are cushioned from this. Your point could illustrate the 'first shall be last and last shall be first' thing.

I liked the joke about the drowned man because it illustrates (to me) that God works through people.

I becmae a christian over 30 years ago (as I think I've said upthread somewhere) but a hideous thing blew up in my life and I cut God out completely for about 15+ years. No-one knew I used to be a christian. But my life got very painful again and I craved comfort. I chose to go to the cathedral, snuck in at the back 1. to hear the music 2. to hear the ancient texts (written by people who knew what it was to suffer - unlike the shrill evangelical brigade at the time who had a tendency to believe that everything would go swimmingly now they had Jesus on their side) and 3. so I wouldn't meet anyone I knew. I swerved if anyone so much as twitched in my direction. It was a great time in a way - I got the solace I was looking for, but I was intensely angry at God and couldn't address him without a torrent of expletives pouring out, and this time went on for quite a while. I think it was important to get out the intense pain and anger at God for what had happened. I still wasn't a practising christian though and had no intention of being - I was using God, really (and I think that's ok tbh; for a time, at least?). it was when I sought to challenge a friend's involvement in what I considered a christian cult that I started looking at the bible to gather some points to present to her. And while doing that I was smacked in the eye with something that stopped me in my tracks. The end result was that me and God were back on. I was very surprised!

As a result of that time, I am not afraid of suffering. I suppose if you stare it in the eye it loses its power. a person may choose suffering, on the very rare occasion; but, generally, we avoid it at all costs. But if you have no choice, and you learn to live with it somehow, you lose the fear of it, come to terms with it. I am not saying that I am blase about suffering but it doesn't fill me dread in the way it did - not just on my own behalf but on others'. I feel I have known that God is 'close to the broken-hearted'. What I suffered was, I suppose, a third world suffering (in that, despite my suffering, I had the tremendous comfort and solace of basic subsistence needs - which we can take for granted in the west), but what I suffered was nonetheless universal, a very human, and intense, suffering.

coming back to the OP (where are you OP!), I think it says somewhere in the lovely book that if you want faith, ask for it. It's not something you can do yourself imo. You can put yourself in line for it eg explore, open your mind, tip up, show willing; but you can't actually do it yourself: it's a gift. Freely available, as it happens.

springytoto · 28/07/2013 23:58

doh! whta I suffered was a first world suffering. sigh.

headinhands · 29/07/2013 07:00

How do you think that the martyrs withstood the pain as they were tortured and refused to recant and bend to the will of their inquisitors. Their spirit was so strong, their love of God was so strong that it overrode and eclipsed their bodily pain.

Many people have died for a cause. Strength of feeling is no indicator whatsoever of the truth of those beliefs.

headinhands · 29/07/2013 07:05

You only have to go to church or listen to people who tell you why or read accounts of spiritual and religious experiences, or experience gnosis for yourself.

Again, personal testimony is not evidence. If it were you would need to believe any experience anyone told you about. How do you decide if what someone is telling you is real? Let's say your neighbour told you they had fairies at the bottom of their garden. Would you actually believe them just because they thought they did?

WMittens · 29/07/2013 07:06

It is called physics because it can only deal with the physical - it is limited to the physical.

It's called Physics because it's Greek for 'knowledge of nature'.

WMittens · 29/07/2013 07:12

Claig

"Where is your evidence for this spiritual gift/realm?"

You only have to go to church or listen to people who tell you why or read accounts of spiritual and religious experiences

Church is not evidence of a spiritual realm, unless you also accept that Disneyland is evidence of magic fairy castles. Going to church only provides evidence that a large building was constructed, and people congregate their once a week to discuss their shared views and sing songs; actually, it sounds like my local pub on karaoke night is evidence of God, too. Although with some of the participants, more like evidence of Satan.

I listened to someone once - he said, if I gave him all my savings, he would invest it and I would get 30% back within 2 years. Still waiting on that cheque.

People lie - this is not evidence, it is testimony and it is not reliable in itself.

headinhands · 29/07/2013 07:14

Another thing that strikes me is further down thread there was a discussion about how suffering was never meant to be a part of this world and was a result of sin. Now we have a discussion about how suffering is almost a prerequisite for being in touch with god. So he never meant anyone to be poor but somehow we need poverty to reach him.

Jelly. Nail. Wall.

WMittens · 29/07/2013 07:16

How do you think that the martyrs withstood the pain as they were tortured and refused to recant and bend to the will of their inquisitors.

Dunno, how do SAS/SBS operatives and CIA agents manage it? Shitloads of training and being tough as fuck I would say. I'm not aware that prayer group is a big part of interrogation resistance training.

claig · 29/07/2013 07:26

"I listened to someone once - he said, if I gave him all my savings, he would invest it and I would get 30% back within 2 years. Still waiting on that cheque."

What has Tony Blair got to do with this?

headinhands · 29/07/2013 07:35

Guys, I've gotta step out of this for the day . But will be back tonight! And hoping y'all have a nice day. Smile

higgle · 29/07/2013 07:35

OP, Have you considered Buddhism? A faith based system without a god with emphasis on kindness ( to summarise in a few words) might be something that would suit you. For me putting my very small place in the universe into perspective was quite life changing. I'm aware from one retreat I went to some Chritian monks and nuns have a buddhist spiritual guide, so you can do both if you are so minded.

claig · 29/07/2013 07:35

Have a nice day, headinhands Smile

grumpyinthemorning · 29/07/2013 08:44

It doesn't matter what you have faith in, as long as you have faith.

I'm more drawn to earth-based beliefs, like wicca, but that's just my path. Yours could be Christianity, or Islam, or something else. The important thing is that we believe in something greater than ourselves. Even if you only have faith in humanity, you still have faith.

niminypiminy · 29/07/2013 08:57

Re testimony and experience: please tell me how we would know anything except through testimony and experience? If I set up a scientific experiment to confirm a hypothesis, I still know it through my own experience. And since we are unable to confirm experimentally everything science has told us about the world, we depend on the testimony of others.

What those who rubbish the evidence of experience and testimony are normally saying is that certain kinds of experience and testimony (normally those associated with 'science' - in inverted commas because in practice there is no such thing as 'science', only sciences).

If prayer group isn't a part of interrogation resistance training, it says a lot for the Jesuits who didn't recant under torture, then, doesn't it? And the fact that they didn't recant doesn't make their beliefs true, but it doesn't make them false, either. It does, however, suggest that their experience of God was such that they could not deny it. And that, in itself, is a powerful testimony to them having had that experience.

niminypiminy · 29/07/2013 08:59

Sorry, in my second para, forgot the end of the sentence -- it should read 'what those who rubbish experience and testimony are normally saying is that certain kinds of experience and testimony are better than others.

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