To hope that the CofE can kill off Wonga, but think they might struggle?

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I would love to see an end to Wonga, but we already have credit unions, I dont know how we can change the culture.

IIRC, with our credit union, you have to save first, then you can borrow. Maybe that is what is putting people off.

Rob, upthread someone had an eight-month payment gap. Nobody can bridge that with a three-month savings pot.

And having a phone contract that you might have taken out 18 months ago doesn't cease to be a commitment just because your income drops. Even dropping to the lowest possible tariff may take time or incur charges, or indeed not make enough difference.

Now I agree with you that there are plenty of fuckwits people around who overspend on extravagant non-essentials even when they can't afford them, and claim poverty, but that doesn't then mean that poverty doesn't exist in this country.

That was your assertion upthread - that there is no true poverty in this country, only fecklessness and poor planning. Which is not only demonstrably untrue, but a deeply insensitive and unhelpful remark.

It's not often that the thought occurs to me that it would probably be a good thing if someone lost their job or got a wasting disease, Rob.

Joke. Probably.

You have a point. People do like their luxury items, like shoes and food. No, seriously, you do have a point. And cold baths are good for you. It's just that you are making all these judgements, without, it seems, having any idea of what people do actually go through. That's what annoys me.

It's like when Michael Portillo tried to live on a tiny amount of money for a week or a month, ages ago, just to prove that he could live on benefits. A week. Or a month. With all his education and energy and ruddy good health, and fired with the desire to prove a point ...

Or when someone looks after a couple of kids for a day and thinks it's easy.

At first I thought great.Then I heard that the C of E has 8 billion quid and invests...in companies that have no more than a 25% interest in weapons...10% in high interest laon companies such as Wonga and no more than 2% interest in Pornography...so am now not remotely interested in this.Utterly depressing.

Horry. I take your point and I like how you put it.

When it comes to Wonga and co, what % of people who use them are the feckless and financially irresponsible ? I'd hazard a guess that it's a large chunk.

There may be people who have genuinely fallen on hard times but if it wasn't for the thousands of feckless morons who Wonga feed on, there would be no Wonga's.

Some people try and cover all base's though. For instance, I'm lucky enough/anal enough/sad enough/organised enough to have 2 years wages saved up. It's taken me years. If I was starting over, I'd do without an 18 month phone contract until I'd saved a decent safety net.

As for poverty....I live near a huge Council estate. There are big, fat lazy bastards on there who have never worked, have a new car on motability, free dental, housing, cheap council tax etc etc. I install fibre broadband in their houses on a daily basis. They all have Sky TV, widescreen telly, cream leather settees, 3 dogs, 5 cats, parrots.

My wife and I work full time, we've not been burgled for 12 years because the scroats on the estate up the road have got better stuff than we've got !

What exactly is your definition of poverty ?

My definition of poverty includes missing meals to pay the gas bill.

Ironically I think in many cases the "long term poor" do end up appearing well off, and the "temporarily poor" (long term employed but factory suddenly closes, or sudden disability/illness, etc) are the ones who fall through the net and end up taking drastic steps.

You say you wouldn't take a long phone contract until you were comfortably off. You may not be aware that long contracts are much cheaper per month than shorter ones (both per month and in some cases in total). Mine is £7.50 pcm, for example. I made the prudent financial decision not to have an iPhone (from £35pcm) You will note that £7.50pcm is less than fixed line rental costs. Nowadays a phone is considered essential - for contact by official agencies such as DCs' school, doctors, etc, and in many cases a cheap contract is the cheapest way to achieve this.

If they 'have a new car on motability' then they are paying for it from their DLA which they get due to having a profound disability.

And yet they are 'fat lazy bastards who never worked?'

nice.

thebody It would be stupid for the church to sell off its properties. They act as collaterol for the many, many things that it finances, plus the most expensive buildings have restrictions on use that means very few (except National Trust maybe) would want to buy them. You don't sell off your capital for short term cashflow.

It will be interesting to see how this actually pans out. The church does already run things like supported housing and schools so will have mechanisms for helping people who get into debt. Good point about learning from the Islamic model Grimma

Agree it's good to see some up to date social response from the church (assuming it doesn't take a decade to enact )

I temped as an accountant for the church for a year so got an interesting insight into their finances

"If they 'have a new car on motability' then they are paying for it from their DLA which they get due to having a profound disability.

And yet they are 'fat lazy bastards who never worked?'

nice."

This is Salford, not Berkshire, a lot of people tell lies or manipulate/exaggerate here to get a new car on motability. Morbid obesity may or may not be considered a profound disability albeit self-inficted.

Rob, it really isn't easy to get the level of DLA which includes access to motability. There are a million hoops to jump through, and medical professionals from gp to consultant have to give written statements about your condition.

If someone can get onto motability, then they are profoundly disabled. Maybe not by your lights, but you have no knowledge of medical their condition or how it affects them. Are you a medical professional who has examined them minutely, and has had years of experience and knowledge of them and their condition? Have you spent years at University to gain your 3 degrees, have you worked 70+ hours a week on the wards for several years gaining experience?

Rather than being a telecoms engineer with expertise in that field?

Rob, a good test to find out whether someone is employable or not is to ask yourself if you would employ them. If you wouldn't, why would you expect someone else to? And if they are not going to be able to get a job (no matter how many application forms they fill in), how do you expect them to live without claiming benefits?

Nobody is denying that some people tell lies, btw. Including some very rich owners of multi-national companies and some politicians. But it's usually a very small minority, imo.

Anyway, isn't this a bit of a hijack of this thread?

My Dad has a motability car and he's minted. As does an IT consultant at my work who is on at least £40k a year. You get a new car every 3 years I think and your insurance paid by the state.

Both are genuinely disabled but I do think that there needs to be a review to see if people can afford to pay themselves. Much as I love my Dad (and the fact it is bulking up my inheritance) I really don't see why the state should pay for that but refuse housing benefit to someone who's been made redundant because they have a box room.

It's rather patronising too, it assumes the disabled are helpless little souls with no ability to provide for themselves. When in fact they are often highly successful people with good jobs.

DLA is not an out of work benefit, and is not means tested. It is to contribute to the additional costs incurred by being disabled, and Shiney Dave claimed it for Ivan.

There's a legitimate discussion to be had about non-means-tested benefits like DLA, winter fuel allowance, basic state pension, and child benefit (which of course has just been made crudely means-tested).

Should the welfare state and NHS be something we almost all contribute to and almost all benefit from? Or should we go for the third-world or Victorian model, where the middle pay taxes but get almost nothing and the very poor get haphazard help?

I think this is an excellent idea and am impressed to see the church actually trying to do something useful for a change. these firms target vulnerable people who should simply stay in for a month and not buy anything unecessary like I would if I was short of a couple of hundred quid one month until they'd caught up in themeselves - not just expect to be able to carry on regardless. did we learn nothing from the sun-prime lending debacle in the US and all it's fallout?

apart from that, anyone that can get rid a a company tht calls itself wonga and has the most irritating adverts on tv deserves praise for that alone.

can't see it working though. and as others have said, the high street banks are little better.

sub prime

Wonga is a company that trades as a result of the society we now live in. Thousands of feckless people that want stuff today, can't afford it and will go to whoever is prepared to risk lending them cash. Companies like Wonga fill that void and charge ridiculous interest to offset the risk.

I don't think the Church should get involved. The problem is with society and consumerism, if it is indeed a problem. Our society/economy is based on profit/greed/stuff/commercialism/capitalism......what did you expect would happen?

rob, I have only used a payday lender once and it was when my marriage broke down. I left with nothing and had a child to feed. There was nothing consumer driven about my use of the company at all.....or feckless come to that.

I haf a child to feed
I had nothing
I didnt know how to begin an application for benefits at that point having never claimed them.
I didn't know where else to go.

With the benefit of hindsight I now know that there were other aavenues open to me. At the time though it seemed there was nothing..

Excuse typos...on phone!

I am certain some people DO use thrse companies recklessly but many do not.

The church is involved...investing in companies that pedal weapons,companies like Wonga and Pornography...see earlier post

Jakebullet, I was generalising a bit. However, your first port of call was a payday lender, not CAB. This is it, with their popularity and aggressive advertising, they are the first option that springs to people's mind as a solution. I suppose one persons definition of reckless is different to someone else's......several thousand % APR, no matter how short the loan is over, is a reckless investment.

Doobydoo.....Ok, it should uninvolve itself.

Payday loans are just legalised loan sharks. They need stamping out.

I think at that point I was not really thinking clearly. I do recall going to a CAB but it being several days before th could see me in the town I had gone to. I do agree with you about the consumer driven society though, as a society we are very materialistic, the latest of this, that and the other in any way we can get it.
As life settled I now know there were lots of other avenues but at the time I was clueless.

Not read the thread, but they rather have egg on their faces now don't they!!!! Can't say i am overly surprised that their business dealings were less than scrupulous, although i nearly choked on my drink when I heard their representative trying to justify it by saying that "business isn't black and white, it can be several shades of grey" How many shades would that be? hmmmm 50??? That wouldn't surprise me either - I have had an experience that has shattered my faith in the CoE to the very core - i could never repeat and quite frankly would rather forget it, but you now how these things are, they play on your mind and drive you slowly mad :( I could never trust that particular church again. I am not talking at a local level, a village vicar is just that. I am a catholic - and i am grateful for that now.

rob99 - you are talking utter shit!

Am sure the millions of people persecuted by the Catholic church now and over hundreds of years agree with you!....what an odd thing to say LEM

Pot and kettle LEM

Well, it was an odd thing to happen, based on personal experience.