To hope that the CofE can kill off Wonga, but think they might struggle?

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I would love to see an end to Wonga, but we already have credit unions, I dont know how we can change the culture.

IIRC, with our credit union, you have to save first, then you can borrow. Maybe that is what is putting people off.

Needaholidaynow, it's hardly the fault of Wonga....the problem is with the retarded scroats who are low paid or don't work but they want another tattoo, latest mobile, Ugg boots, 90 inch flat screen TV and dope....they are not prepared to do without luxuries that they can't afford and Wonga is the only place that will lend them cash.

I live in Salford and I see examples of this on a daily basis. Tell me how unemployed men with a council house and kids can afford a £700 tattoo.....there's no such thing as poverty in this country, just people who spend their handouts on luxuries instead of the important things.

ODFO

There is real poverty in this country that isn't attributable to widescreen goats. Many of those suffering have been hit by change of circumstances leaving a financial gap that they can never plug (eg lose job, benefits delayed, borrow money to feed children, use whole of first JSA payment to service debt, borrow again to feed children again...).

If you lose your job and you're in social housing, the benefits system picks up housing costs and gives handouts.

If you own your home and lose your job.....sell your home.

Worst case scenario....camp out on the council steps overnight and they'll sort you out in a heartbeat.

A good rule of thumb is that when you have a job, strive to save up at least the equivalent of 3 months wages as a small safety net just in case, or more if you're more risk averse.

Either way, people who can afford the interest payments on payday loans, no matter if it's short term or not, are not, in my opinion, in real poverty.......It's a complete contradiction.

::bangs head on wall::

So there's never a gap in payments?

And it never happens that someone's boiler dies in the same week as the rent falls?

These days, having the equivalent of three months' earnings in savings is ... well, s very luxurious position.

HSBC both charge at least £25/day

HSBCs fees are nowhere near that amount. Where do people get their 'info' from?

rob, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

Last year ATOS fucked up my medical assessment - and admitted this. Nonetheless I spent 12 months on half-pay ESA/incapacity and 5 months on zero ESA.

If I hadn't had friends and family as a backstop, I would have been up shit creek.

Incidentally, I had a lot more than 3 months' savings when I first became ill - more than 5 years ago.

BTW, if you genuinely know that men with no income other than unemployment and family benefits are diverting £700 to pay for a tattoo, I think the UK's real poverty is right there under your nose.

Their children are not exactly going to be having new shoes or proper food, are they?

I too think it will be a struggle but at least the right direction. Wonga et al are immoral to the extreme.

I wonder if a lot of churches could work them in with the foodbanks and debt advice centres they already run, and have something more holistic going on to help the most vulnerable.

Do hope something can get off the ground. Good on Justin.

I quite liked his kind of apology today too - where he said he was embarrassed and irritated I think - anyway came over as quite human I thought ?

These discussions are always interesting IMHO. The irony of those justifying the need to borrow from Wonga is amazing.

I'm with Rob on this essentially as there is rarely any genuine need to use these companies. I hear all the 'boiler' this and 'food' that but none of it alters the fact that poor people should not borrow money they cannot pay back.

If you are hungry and don't have any money till benefits come in then you have two choices. Go hungry or borrow money that will result in you repeating the same exercise next month (but worse due to extra interest payments). It's the same as the overdraft that never gets paid back because you still need the same amount of money to live on every month.

So the boiler goes. Be bloody cold for a week till you can afford to fix it. I grew up in a council house with no central heating and rattly windows. We had no boiler and no heating other than a fireplace in the lounge. We were cold, as was everyone else on our estate so being cold in winter was a part of life. I'm sure people can go 7 days without heat.

The trouble is, no-one has the upper lip to wait nowadays so fool themselves into needing a pay day loan.

I don't think some people have any idea what it's like to be poor.
I don't think I do really (though I've often had little disposable income but usually some options better than Wonga if desperate)

• But I have a better imagination than some.

Borrowing money is a problem that is not exclusive to the lower end of the market i.e. Wonga.

It wasn't that long ago that you were only really allowed one credit card where the limit was set to roughly one months wages, not an average annual salary (yes I've had a card with a £25k limit in the past!).

Borrowing is false economy, both in the literal sense and the UK economy. The sooner we all realise it's a bad thing the sooner the market need will dwindle and the companies will too. While there is a need these companies will flourish and let's not fool ourselves that high street banks are any less immoral. They are essentially all the same and charge the highest rates that they can get away with.

Yes, high street banks are unscrupulous these days too.
I don't rate their advice to small businesses - I think they just reckon anyone with a small business is working for them !
And they encourage ignorance and lack of information as it makes them more money eg. "We like to save paper where we can" so would prefer not to give you a tiny scrap of paper with your balance details at the ATM machine. Really ?
Then they send you shitty letters when you are overdrawn - and actually giving them more business. How about "Thank you for going beyond your over-draft limit this month, the charge for this will be ...." ?
When you really need money they don't care and won't help eg. offer larger over-draft when you have plenty coming in, but refuse when you need it.

I'd like to see the Church put some of its money into person-to-person lending. This challenges the monopoly of the banks. More details here www.money.co.uk/loans/social-lending-sites.htm

Perhaps I should contact the archbishop suggesting that he set up a person-to-person lending scheme that offers smaller loans? It's unlicensed so the church could do it.

wiki entry en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer_lending and money saving expert guide here www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/cheap-personal-loans#tool

Please note I've not borrowed from these companies so no personal recommendation

Techno, I hear what you are saying but if someone has no food and a family to feed then Wonga et al might seem an attractive option. I hope with the rise in food banks though that there is now an alternative.

I can't believe that no-one has pointed out this significant ecumenical matter.

What amuses me is that apparently the CofE has actually invested in Wonga.

Kim147. The problem lies with consumerism and the fact that people are not prepared to do without their luxury items. All these poor people who's "boiler blows up" or "can't pay their utility bills", do they have a mobile phone that costs them £20, £30, £40 a month? Do they have broadband? Do they have a car?
If the boiler blows up, do what they did in 1750.....have a cold bath and light a fire.
Horry If there is a gap in payments then your financial housekeeping is at fault......no matter how little you get in wages or handouts, you should save a percentage of it and if that means dumping your mobile, broadband, car, boiler or whatever you may regard as an essential, then you must do it otherwise there is no legitimate excuse in my opinion.