in thinking it is getting impossible to discuss the welfare state on here any more

[size20knickersandfatter]

Disclaimer: I am all for the welfare state. I firmly believe in the NHS, and have no desire for a return to workhouses or other such draconian matters.

However, it seems to be that ever since the Tories started making cuts, it's impossible to even question on here the morality or the fairness of the system. I'll admit it - I don't think the system was fair, at all.

I earn a very average salary. As a result I am only slightly better off than I would be on benefits and considerably worse off when my childcare costs are deducted. It's difficult not to feel resentful when you're in that position.

• I don't believe throwing money around will mean any less children will "go to bed hungry."

• I don't believe benefits should be more lucrative than paid work. Ever. And at the moment, they are. I think the fact that they ever were is disgraceful.

• I think the welfare state is a crutch in a crisis. Disability excepted, it is not a walking stick through life.

I also know there will be hundreds of yawns, this AGAIN, do I want children to starve, I want a return to the workhouse actually no I want the poor shot actually I want them deported ha ha ha what a bitch what a cow what a horrible person. Oh and she hasn't mentioned widescreen TVs LOL.

No, actually, I'm none of the above, I'm just an ordinary person struggling to make ends meet myself. It's very easy to be lofty and high handed and sentimental when you're on board the gravy train yourself. As it is, I don't want benefits to disappear but I don't know just one piss taker, I know several, and don't believe I'm not typical in this.

Welfare - benefits - cost a FORTUNE and people are deluding themselves if they think they don't. The cost of other services doesn't mean welfare isn't a massive cut. It's like saying "that holiday is cheap, look how expensive it is to spend a fortnight in Disneyland." The fact is, it's unsustainable.

I'm happy for people to be given the support they need but at the moment I think some people do think "give people on benefits all the money they like and it will end poverty."

It won't.

I know what a country looks like without welfare support and it's not pretty. It's brutal. This country isn't like that, doesn't even approach it, and isn't headed in that direction.

The welfare Bill is expensive yes. The government need to do more to help the people who can work but are unable to find jobs.

However there are lots more issues where the bills are high. MP's, Bankers and the rest. So to justify reducing the government bill you have to start at the top and work your way down.

The media is horrendous and should never cloud your own judgment as it is always used as a distraction.

"MP's, Bankers and the rest. "

What does this mean?

I notice your link Kim doesn't include the information about when this explosion happened or about social mobility during the Labour years. Or how much the top 40 per cent contributes in tax revenue. Or how it isn't - yet - illegal to own things.

MrsDeVere, I feel so sad that you feel guilty for working part-time. You really shouldn't feel that way; you are doing your utmost which is more than most people do.

Mind, I also feel guilty for working part-time. I honestly don't think I can actually cope with full-time work, because when I was doing it I kept on having sodding breakdowns, and as a lp and therefore effectively the only parent my child has I can't let that happen. But still, I know that people look at me and think "Well, she's not really trying, is she?" I am, but it's not enough. So I know where you're coming from.

The government need to do more to help the people who can work but are unable to find jobs.

how? you need jobs creating and how do you do that?

I am an entrepreneur. but you cannot pay me to create a job. if the job can make money, I will create it myself. if you offer me £1k as the govt has in the past, I will take it, but if the salary is say £25-50k, I wont create a job to get £1k.

and no way should the govt pay any me or anyone else any more to create jobs. as we would just take the money and create a job that was always going to be created.

you could offer a cut in corp tax. if I paid £20k less corp tax this year, I might hire 3 people instead of 2.

NB: my company is tiny but when I look at how much tax my co pays compared with Amazon, we are much more useful than them to the uk.

It means what it says. They all cost money.

^^as far as I can see she hasn't said living on benefits is cushy..

Well, she has. In the first post on this thread (not the header; read back).

I've already explained why I'm defensive. You are comfortable then face the stress guilt and humiliation of being made redundant. You try and do the right thing and live of the savings you made while also trying to do the right thing while facing the stress and humiliation of job hunting and constant rejection. You accept a low paid job rather than remain unemployed again trying to do the right thing. Your pay doesn't cover even the basic bills but by now you've no savings left and have sold what you can.

You then lose your home and face all the horrible things that come with being homeless. You become ill due to the number of meals you've skipped
but don't collect your prescription to save money. You become so desperate you claim tax credits to top up your pay.

Your health starts to improve and the long climb up the slippery slope to stability can start again. You work hard, you make improvement plans yet people call you a scrounged or worse.

This all leads to defensiveness becoming your default to the slightest bit of negativity in a desperate attempt to regain a little dignity and in the hope you can be viewed as a human being again rather than some characature that's fit for all to beat down (metaphorically speaking).

OP, you are irritating the feck out of me. And yes it is hot and yes, I do work.

By your own admission, you're skint. You then (as well as others') whinge on about people on benefits getting the same amount of money than you (which I personally do not believe).

Would that not make people on benefits skint too? Just becauase you choose to let your kids do some arty-farty classes, and others might use that money to, erm, pay a bill; does not make you any more entitled than you like to think you are.

The bankers cost money during the Labour government.

MPs cost money because that is the price of democracy. If you want people not to stand because they can't afford to, that's up to you. You might not like the make up of the parliament that results.

"The rest?" How does "the rest" cost money? What do you mean?

"which I personally do not believe"

Any reason why you don't believe this, given that it's often true? Just don't want to, maybe?

Yes to answer the Op. You cannot discuss the welfare state on here. As it will always have people who are so focused on the daily government viper that brainwashes them into thinking all our hard working taxes goes to pay for some lazy scrounger to be living it up.
Seriously!!

No, I am not on benefits I am lucky enough to have my job. Yet I do with work with a lot of families who are and I see the daily struggle it really is not only for them to get out of it but just to survive on them. They are not and should not be the first and only group of society to lose government payments and they should stop being used by the government as a reason the country is in such debt.

Oh give over with your "often true". Prove it, you shyster.

As someone has already pointed out, unemployment benefits cost a tiny fraction of govt expenditure. Yet take up a massive amount of tabloid space.

Ok I'll prove it. If it wasn't "often true" then no one would complain about a cap which means no one receiving in benefits more than they would in work. Because there would be nothing to complain about, because it wouldn't be "often true". People complain about it because it will mean a reduction in money for some people, because they are receiving in benefits more than they would in work.

Stop complaining about the cap if you think it isn't true, because the cap would then affect no one.

And don't be rude. I haven't been rude. There's no need.

And as someone else has pointed out, the actual sum is huge. And any small reduction is huge.

MPs cost money because that is the price of democracy. If you want people not to stand because they can't afford to, that's up to you. You might not like the make up of the parliament that results.

Really?? So they have to have a wage of 61,000 p/a ?? So have to declare £6,000 for printing jobs? They have to declare £4,000 for food?
O yes they must otherwise we would have shit MP's.

Lol you really think the cap is so that people don't earn more than they would in work? They've really done a number on you, Citizen Crumbled.

I agree with your post. Nice to see a bit of sense talked about the welfare state for a change.

MPs expenses are something else. There is a clampdown, if you haven't noticed. I approve.

Yes, 61,000 a year is alright. It's not huge, for London. It's right that MPs from northern towns should be compensated for frequent travel down south and up north, because they couldn't afford it on that salary.

I don't think you understand sunshine. It's not about shit MPs. It's about wealthy MPs. If you only want wealthy MPs in parliament then slash the MPs wage. Slash it big. You'll get a gozillian more Tories than you want, that's for sure.

Wallison, what do you think the cap is for?

And by the way people don't "earn" their welfare payments, though it's often described as payday by recipients.