in thinking it is getting impossible to discuss the welfare state on here any more

[size20knickersandfatter]

Disclaimer: I am all for the welfare state. I firmly believe in the NHS, and have no desire for a return to workhouses or other such draconian matters.

However, it seems to be that ever since the Tories started making cuts, it's impossible to even question on here the morality or the fairness of the system. I'll admit it - I don't think the system was fair, at all.

I earn a very average salary. As a result I am only slightly better off than I would be on benefits and considerably worse off when my childcare costs are deducted. It's difficult not to feel resentful when you're in that position.

• I don't believe throwing money around will mean any less children will "go to bed hungry."

• I don't believe benefits should be more lucrative than paid work. Ever. And at the moment, they are. I think the fact that they ever were is disgraceful.

• I think the welfare state is a crutch in a crisis. Disability excepted, it is not a walking stick through life.

I also know there will be hundreds of yawns, this AGAIN, do I want children to starve, I want a return to the workhouse actually no I want the poor shot actually I want them deported ha ha ha what a bitch what a cow what a horrible person. Oh and she hasn't mentioned widescreen TVs LOL.

No, actually, I'm none of the above, I'm just an ordinary person struggling to make ends meet myself. It's very easy to be lofty and high handed and sentimental when you're on board the gravy train yourself. As it is, I don't want benefits to disappear but I don't know just one piss taker, I know several, and don't believe I'm not typical in this.

Welfare - benefits - cost a FORTUNE and people are deluding themselves if they think they don't. The cost of other services doesn't mean welfare isn't a massive cut. It's like saying "that holiday is cheap, look how expensive it is to spend a fortnight in Disneyland." The fact is, it's unsustainable.

I'm happy for people to be given the support they need but at the moment I think some people do think "give people on benefits all the money they like and it will end poverty."

It won't.

Unpaid tax? You mean evaded or avoided? And what do you mean? £20,000 benefits is one person - is "unpaid tax in the millions" also one person?

shine - If you were the tax man, how would you collect more tax from say Amazon?

Ok. Can't be arsed to read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been said. Have you ever been on benefits OP? I have. The reason people aren't massively better off working is because jobs do not pay a living wage. Do you think an entire family should have to live off less than mininum wage just to make sure that working people are better off? Btw we are 100 pounds per month better off than we were on benefits. We still get tax credits though and couldn't afford to live without them. Benefits are not too high. Pay is too low. Someone working full time should not have to be topped up with housing benefit or tax credits in order to live but that's the way it is. Many benefit claimants are working hard but their jobs don't pay enough and someone has to do those jobs.

Do you know what per centage the top wealthiest people pay into "the system"?

Crumbledwalnuts

Most likely a lot of them do. However when one of them don't it is a higher amount of money compared to a benefit claimant.

Do you mean evading, or avoiding? This is their money, not the state's money.

Does this help?

I mean avoiding I.E not declaring. You don't need to get so defensive I was merely pointing out that it is not JUST people on benefits that manipulate the system and therefore cost the government money.

crumbled I think the top 1% of earners pay 24% of all the income tax collected. The top 50% of earners contribute about 88% of all income tax.

Ooh I just read your link, my figures are out of date, it's 30% now - wow.

Just trying to pin down vague statements. :) I agree with the government's moves to clamp down on tax evasion. Long time coming. Labour had 13 years :)

My figures also somewhat out of date because of the 50 rate. But it is huge - massive proportion.

Tony Blair does well out of it. I read about his tiny, tiny tax bill not that long ago.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

the table headed High Income shows the distribution.

so adding the last 3 columns show the top 10% (those earning £35,345 or more) pay 40% of all income tax.

Welfare does not cost a fortune and is a good use of money. What else would you have it spent on? More tax breaks for Starbucks?

If welfare is more lucrative than work then work is paying too little.

the housing market is out of control. there is not enough social housing.

None of this is the fault of people who do not have a job. Stop arguing for punishing them.

Stop fighting them for crumbs from the rich man's table.

I wouldn't want the pressure of a career earning a couple of hundred thousand a year and paying 50% tax on some of it (and 40% on most of it) Thank god there are some people who do it though, because the country depends heavily on them

There should be more social housing.

I agree witht the OP but there are many many people on this site who are very defensive of the benefits system and will not accept that people should gain more by working hard, than by doing nothing (whether by choice or not) I think it is a very reasonable expectation. I wonder why they are so defensive???

Thank you faster. Waffly, welfare does cost a fortune. The details are on the thread. I would have the money to keep thanks, and I would have all those families who struggle to keep a bit more of their money to, to do with what they will.

what I don't really get about mn is the amount of slagging someone like the op gets...as far as I can see she hasn't said living on benefits is cushy...

one thread about benefits was supposed to be really funny, loads of back slapping and in jokes about plasma tellies and goats...hilarious stuff...

yet mn seems to be full of well off mums posting between taking stuff to the dry cleaners or picking up kids from music lessons. Where are the mums who live on benefits/earn £6.19 an hour, live off 3 cleaning jobs?

these are the people I want to hear from, not the ones married to doctors...posting about goats and saying hi to their favourites

I wonder why they are so defensive???
Maybe because the benefits system has been a life saver for them or a member of their family/loved ones.
Maybe because they work daily with people who without the benefits would simply starve.
Maybe because they are decent people who understand that some people are not as lucky as others and are unable to gain good qualifications that result in high paying jobs.

Just to give a few

The goat posting is for when you run out of arguments SSD.

Not you, SSD, but i think you know what I mean!

Because we think the welfare state needs defending. And that the people attacking have their facts wrong.

Are you implying it can only be because they are benefit scroungers themselves, doctorbrownbear?

I've never been on benefits. I earn over the national average and am quite comfortably off.

I just give a shit about other people, not just myself.

Who is attacking the welfare state? You run into problems when you defend the "welfare state" - when in fact people are criticising those taking the mickey or engaging in fraud. It's you lumping them together, not me.

OP i think it is impossible to have a fair conversation about the welfare state because it is simply not the done thing to have anything other than left wing political opinions these days.

I have a great life and am fortunate to have had a very good career and am married to a wealthy man. My life wasn't always so rosy, i grew up in a northern mill town, my DM was a cleaner.

When DH and i lived in South London and i had DD1 i made a lot of local friends at the baby groups. They were all wealthy ladies from wealthy families. They had had excellent educations, lived very good lives. They all read the Guardian and rolled their eyes at the Daily Mail. They all supported Labour. To have any other political opinions than theirs was not acceptable to them. They loved the welfare system. They felt that those on benefits needed a voice and it was them. They all had a token friend from an ethnic minority. They didn't actually know anybody on benefits, nor would they actually want to. The only people they knew who lived in less desirable neighbourhoods were their cleaners.

When they found out that i grew up in a Northern Mill town they decided i wasn't one of them and gave me a wide birth. Then when they found out who my DH was they wanted to be my friend again. They have no idea what it is like to live with very little, or to live on benefits, or to work incredibly hard and only just keep your head above the water. I think that quite a few of my old "friends" are on here.