in thinking it is getting impossible to discuss the welfare state on here any more

[size20knickersandfatter]

Disclaimer: I am all for the welfare state. I firmly believe in the NHS, and have no desire for a return to workhouses or other such draconian matters.

However, it seems to be that ever since the Tories started making cuts, it's impossible to even question on here the morality or the fairness of the system. I'll admit it - I don't think the system was fair, at all.

I earn a very average salary. As a result I am only slightly better off than I would be on benefits and considerably worse off when my childcare costs are deducted. It's difficult not to feel resentful when you're in that position.

• I don't believe throwing money around will mean any less children will "go to bed hungry."

• I don't believe benefits should be more lucrative than paid work. Ever. And at the moment, they are. I think the fact that they ever were is disgraceful.

• I think the welfare state is a crutch in a crisis. Disability excepted, it is not a walking stick through life.

I also know there will be hundreds of yawns, this AGAIN, do I want children to starve, I want a return to the workhouse actually no I want the poor shot actually I want them deported ha ha ha what a bitch what a cow what a horrible person. Oh and she hasn't mentioned widescreen TVs LOL.

No, actually, I'm none of the above, I'm just an ordinary person struggling to make ends meet myself. It's very easy to be lofty and high handed and sentimental when you're on board the gravy train yourself. As it is, I don't want benefits to disappear but I don't know just one piss taker, I know several, and don't believe I'm not typical in this.

Welfare - benefits - cost a FORTUNE and people are deluding themselves if they think they don't. The cost of other services doesn't mean welfare isn't a massive cut. It's like saying "that holiday is cheap, look how expensive it is to spend a fortnight in Disneyland." The fact is, it's unsustainable.

I'm happy for people to be given the support they need but at the moment I think some people do think "give people on benefits all the money they like and it will end poverty."

It won't.

Where does this envoy accusation comes from anyway? It comes from just needing something to say. I don't envy them, I don't want anyone to have my money that steals it or takes the mickey. Legitimate redistribution is fine - you shoudl try living in a place where it doesn't happen.

That's not envy. Unless you count the fact that I worked, they didn't, they have my money and I don't.

I've not been on benefits for nearly 20 years, thankfully. I signed on for 6 months and I hope I never have to do it again - it was soul destroying.
I don't begrudge people who receive benefits, even though there is a small percentage of people who take the piss.

Blaming the system is not really the answer. Adults are not children. They can make choices. Goodness knows those choices are defended often enough. If adults want to behave like children - treat them that way. Tell them what they can spend their money on, make them want independence.

I would add that, while I was unemployed in my 20s, the very idea of purchasing a television, a computer, a mobile phone (they were around, just), a car or, oh my sides, a holiday would have been in the realms of fantasy. I bought a suit and a new pair of shoes and had regular haircuts - for obvious reasons.

grumpy it didn't sound like you thought they were vile due to their sleeping habits or not using a room in winter. I very much got the impression it is their behaviour you don't like (can't blame you they sound horrible).

Another example: I currently know two qualified teachers who work as teacher assistants precisely because, in their words, they are entitled to top ups due to the ridiculous low pay of the job, and they have Sussed that if they worked to their potential as teachers with the additional childcare costs, work pressure etc , the difference in their standard of living would be negligible.

And no these aren't mums of tiny children who have deliberately taken a sensibly lower stress job temporarily and are supported by their husbands. These are women with much older children who actually really would quite like to be doing the job they trained for but have little incentive.

Surely it would be far better for the system to incentivise people like this to do the career they trained in? It would also free up the teacher assistant posts for people who are qualified at that level but aren't teachers.

To go back to what mrs de vere said, I don't think many people would genuinely prefer unemployment over having a job. But I do think there is currently very little incentive for people to work to their potential, do a full working week or go for promotions, when any financial gain is given with one hand and taken away by another

If you've got something new to say, OP, then let me hear it. Welfare threads tend to be much like the proverbial pissing contest.

crumbled you are totally missing the point that most of the welfare budget goes to pensioners. For working age benefits most are actually in employment. Of those that are unemployed most have been employed and made redundant relatively recently and are actively seeking work. Remember a large proportion of those in part time work are in part time work because it is all they could get. Their only other alternative was remaining unemployed. I'm sure you'll agree they chose the better of the 2 options.

The thing is, when the government give you something i.e tax credits and class them as an entitlement, people will rely on this to live. Quite rightly too, because so many people were in the situation my DM was in 20 odd years ago.

Due to this entitlement, people who had kids have gone on to have more. These are working couples who have had top ups like WTC.

A friend of mine only had one child when she met her partner, they claimed as a joint couple so received top ups. They went on to have 2 more DC, both planned. They knew things would be tight but she also told me they would receive a bit more for those children in CB and TC. It was what they were entitled to, and they didn't do too badly for a couple of years.

Now she's fucked financially. TC have gone down, they can barely manage.

The system allowed them to make these choices, but then pulled the rug from under their feet a few years later.

Who is to blame? The government or my friends? I think it's both.

It's a bit of a chicken and an egg with the part-time work- companies parcel up their work into part-time roles about 16 hours a week precisely so working parents can claim tax credits (although the hours are changing). The only people I know on benefits all keep their hours low on purpose for this reason, it's not a big secret but it is a bit galling when they could take more shifts/work longer hours but don't to keep the working hours/tax credit ratio to the optimum. I'm not envious myself as these aren't jobs I'd love to do but it's not true to say that this is all they could get; the employers know this is one way to entice people into low wage jobs.

mrsd I'm so sorry all that has happened to your family and I'm really sorry you feel guilty for not working full time.

Part time work pisses me off. Poorly paid work seems to be available on a part time basis quite easily. A well part time job that's well paid however is a bloody nightmare to find. I would love to work 4 days a week but my work refuse to entertain the idea.

Name I agree with that which is why nothing would tempt me into the part-time/wtc trap, as if the benefits shift, you are really stuffed. Also, a lot of part-time work unless you are very lucky doesn't have much career progression. So, I wouldn't find that satisfying myself.

MrsDeVere I'm sorry you feel like that because under the circumstances, working part-time is an amazing achievement. I think it has been devalued though, by people who really do not have any other reason not to work full-time- although in each case, I have understood where my friend is coming from because they are usually putting their family needs first (most amount of time with mother/least amount of working/most amount of tax credits).

Some figures for you:

The government spending for 2013 comes in at £509.4billion, of which £9.8billion was spent on unemployment benefits. I'll do the maths for you - that's 1.9% of what the government spent overall.

It is a myth that unemployment benefits are the massive drain on the system that the Tories would have us believe. Conversely, £138.1billion went on pensions - 27.11%. Should we off the coffin-dodgers instead to save even more cash? Nope, because that would be absurd and morally abhorrent.

The answer is NOT to cut benefits or to spin a load of rhetoric portraying all benefit claimants as lazy and workshy. While the cost of living is beyond so many - including low paid workers - we cannot do anything to reduce the amount of spending on supporting families without forcing people into poverty.

We need a living wage, sod the minimum wage. We also need to bring down the cost of living. Rent, house prices, food, utilities - all too expensive.

Can I reiterate: I am not criticising people who work part time for health reasons, or because they can afford to do so with the support of a partner, or because they cannot find full time employment. (Obvious that part time is better than nothing) I am criticising a system which acts as a DISincentive to many people to work to their potential.
And as for the pensions issue: surely that's all the more reason why the system should incentivise people to work and earn to their potential? I don't imagine many people will want a part time pension which funds only half their week when they retire!

Crumbled really? My taxes do not pay the wages of the MPs or the for the lifestyle of our huge extended Royal Family?

Is that it, Mrs DV?

The Royal family generates income for the UK, quite a lot. And if you want us to go back to the 18th Century and have only independently wealthy MPS able to stand, that's up to you. And if you think MPs are rich, that's also up to you.

Re: pensionsers, I know that. Of course. It doesn't mean I want my money to go to people who steal it, or to take the mickey, or to support people who get from not working than working. I just don't. I'm not missing any point.

This government has got it right. If you penalise people for saving, they won't save. If you penalise people for working, they won't work. If you pay people to have more children, they will have more children.

People who are not on benefits can be just as bad at cheating system I.E Tax payments, only their ripple effect is a hell of a lot worse.
No one should cheat the system at all. However you do it.

How is it worse?

£9.8billion was spent on unemployment benefits

that's £10,000,000,000

so every 1% you can reduce the bill by is £100,000,000.

that's £100 million. for every 1% reduction.

and we have teachers working as TAs.

How is it worse?

Because an unpaid tax bill in the millions is worse than 20,000 a year benefit payments...