To have confronted this poor excuse for a mother?

[TeddyPickleStick]

So I'm sat at work, window open. I hear a commotion outside so get up and look out the window. There is a heavily pregnant woman with two small children - a boy of around 3 and a girl of maybe 4.

She is screaming at the boy .. ' you fucking piece of shit, what the fuck are you doing? ' and ' Come on you little prick ' etc etc.

I shout down ' Don't do that! Don't say that! ' in complete shock. ' Who the fuck are you? Fuck off ' she shouts back.

I then deliberated on what to do. I felt really angry so ran down the stairs onto the street but she had gone into the bank. And then I ground to a halt and couldn't work out what to do.

So did nothing more. I mean, what CAN you do? Only a bit of swearing after all eh? I have no idea what I would have done if I'd managed to confront her anyway.

I detest this, really hate it. If you swear at your children like this, in the street, then you are a shit parent.

Aren't you?

I think my concern is the willingness for people to confront the parent, especially in the case of the poster who was hearing what she thought was child abuse in another flat. Please keep in mind that if it IS an ongoing abusive situation, you risk putting the child in more danger of abuse, as the abusive parent may then blame the child for the interference and take it out on them. That's why often it may be better to either modify your approach a bit or contact police or social services to follow it up.

I will admit to having judged another parent at my DS2's nursery this school year. I recall thinking "chav" on an occasion or two. One day, she was outside the nursery, shouting at her children, swearing and seemed quite out of control. Her DD was crying and upset and I stepped in and said to her "Stop it - can't you see she's scared and upset?" I was quite angry at the situation, partly because I didn't really need my DS to hear the language she was using either. We both went into the nursery, and I had a quiet word with one of the teachers, mentioning that the parent seemed very angry and was shouting at her DCs and maybe they could talk to her. When I came back later to pick up DS2, I saw her there, looking tired and stressed. She was much calmer. I took the time to chat to her a bit and found out that she had been dealing with a horrific amount of problems that had literally put her on the edge. One of the DCs running off and into the busy street had been the final straw and she just went off. She felt badly, and when I took the time to think back, it was absolutely the first time I'd ever heard her even raise her voice at her DCs. I've gotten to know her since then, and she's is actually very good with her DCs. I've never seen her behave like that since then. So I'd misjudged her, based on her appearance as well as on that moment she had briefly lost control.

I'd have to clarify that she is a good parent, however, she (in a moment of extreme stress and sparked by her child running out in front of a car) had a brief moment of bad parenting and lost control.

I'm not saying "don't report it" as obviously if someone is struggling and needs help or support in their parenting skills, then social services is in a position to help them. But don't assume that you know everything that is going on, especially with complete strangers - I saw this woman 5 days a week for a couple months before this happened and I still misjudged it. Please note that I am not saying it's acceptable behaviour, by the way.

I also agree with the point someone made that it wasn't necessarily a definite that it was the mother of the child. Perhaps it was an older sibling (it happens - my oldest is 27 and my youngest is 3), an au pair or childminder (again, it happens, we had to part ways with one when DD was small because the childminder was horrible to DD when we were not there - we were actually advised by someone who witnessed it not long after we hired her), or stepmother (sorry to those that are SMs - not implying you're all evil btw ), or even family friend at the end of their tether. Yes, it could likely be the mother - but you don't know for definite, do you? Just a thought.

also good posts by Handcream

Your posts are complete bloody nonsense triggle and are completely irrelevant to the situation I described in my op.

You are of course spot on missmarple, sw do fuck all. Neither do the host of other intervention approaches.

Ideally everyone would have the advantage of being born knowing what to do and no one would treat kids like shit, spend the money for shopping on drugs, fail to realise the impact of verbal abuse, get angry, abuse and endanger children. We cannot control who gives birth. We cannot place every child who's parent isn't ideal and ends up during at them in the street in appropriate care. There are shit people out there, really shit. They sometimes have kids. There are different levels of acceptable. Children are removed when necessary, it's a long process for some and not without casualties. There are some parents who should never get within then feet of their child again. There are some who, after help working through lots of other issues, skill go on to patent effectively again.

There are so many variables, levels and complexities. Nothing is black and white. You sound a bit like the sort of person who shares pictures of battered children on Facebook with captions like 'end child abuse'. A sentiment you can't fault, but there's no real substance there is there? You don't understand the first thing about it real, beyond the Sun headline type rants, do you?

And thankfully I've never heard the phrase 'fucked out of it', it's a bit rough.

Teddy that's your opinion. You are, of course, entitled to it, whether or not it's correct. I think there are similarities, but you're obviously too entrenched in your opinion to see anyone else's. I think that's been pretty clear throughout the thread. Your approach seems to be if someone doesn't completely agree with you and support your view 100% then you attack, much like you did with some previous posters. Life is not quite that black and white much of the time.

Interestingly, I read a recent post on MN where a poster's child fell in a pond at a pub and she was so freaked out by the time the child was out and safe that she lost grip and screamed and swore at the child. NOT ONE OTHER POSTER said she was a shit parent. NOT ONE. Why? Probably a number of reasons - it was someone familiar on a familiar site, rather than a complete stranger, so they gave them the benefit of the doubt. It was someone who told the whole story, so they didn't get just one small snapshot of the whole situation. Or perhaps they were too uncomfortable to say anything. Who knows? But it's interesting.

The pond thing is completely different. Totally. God, my youngest once ran out in front of a car in a Sainsburys. He just ran .. I couldn't stop him. The car missed him by millimetres. I was so shocked I screamed at him and almost threw him in my car, shaking. Trust me, I looked like a mother who had just had the shock of her life - not like the low life I witnessed out the window shouting in her son/s face that he was a fucking little prick and a piece of shit and ' just fuck off, go on, fuck off ' - and I'd not heard one peep from him.

Yes, I'm very black and white on this. Yes I'm entrenched in my view point. I know the difference between a pond falling type scenario and a vile, disgusting woman abusing her child in the street. I don't give two tosses about her bad day/ bad upbringing/ money troubles whatever. I just wish I knew her address - I'd report her in a second.

So - you can say what you like about me. You can think what you like. You can all decide that I just want everyone to agree with me. You can wring your hands and worry about this poor woman, gosh, what CAN have driven her to this ?

I would far rather hold my opinion that's one that seeks to excuse this behaviour . And while you say ' yes it was bad BUT .. ' you make excuses.

I'd be a useless SW. I'd actually want to protect children ...

Tell me how you would protect children - share your secrets, let sw know what they are doing wrong.

I'd love to hear it.

You might be black and white, but the issue isn't.

People are not trying to excuse it. I for one think it's an awful way to behave. I would try to understand it, look at the reasons why this women thinks it's ok to speak to a child like that. So hopefully she grows to change. Support them all.

What's the viable alternative?

I'd be a useless SW. I'd actually want to protect children ...

Teddy you took a step too far with this comment. And FWIW, how would you feel if someone had walked around the corner while you were screaming at your child and decided you were a shit parent and reported you? No excuses after all. YOU think you looked like a mother who had just had the shock of her life. Someone else probably just thought you looked like a shit mother. Sound familiar? I suppose not, because you have an excuse. sigh...

As I said... entrenched...

teddy that's a bad comment to make about social workers.

tiggle made some very valid points.

working with families isn't black and white, people parent very differently and yes this woman sounds vile but unfortunately not all children are tucked up in bed at 7 with a milky drink and a story.

if social workers were called upon to take every child into care that had been sworn at/ shouted at/ smacked by their parents then I am afraid the system would collapse under the weight.

All from the same poster.... she says(about her own parenting meltdown):

I was so shocked I screamed at him and almost threw him in my car, shaking.

But then says about another mother's parenting meltdown:

It makes no difference if this is just a few seconds out of an otherwise charmed life.

it is one thing to say ' Oh FFS child ' and quite another to verbally lay a little boy out.

If you scream this stuff to your very small children, regardless of your terrible stressful day, then you are a shit parent.

And it's perfectly ok for me to assume she's a shit parent. If you don't want me to think that then don't scream foul abuse at your defenceless little boy.

I don't give two tosses about her bad day/ bad upbringing/ money troubles whatever.

Now, let's review... poster said she did this:

I was so shocked I screamed at him and almost threw him in my car, shaking.

Goodness, I hope you were well dressed, or some might think you were rough.

Pot, kettle, anyone?

Teddy, you asked if YABU to intervene. No, you did the right thing imo. But I also agree with lots of what Triggles says. Challenge the behaviour on the street, because the person needs to know it's OTT and unacceptable. But keep an open mind as to what happens when you are not around, and why. As for phoning SS - I really don't know what I would do.

I'm always well dressed but that's by the by

I said I wouldn't return to this thread and should should go back to hiding it again and ignoring the new spate of apologists

No, no pot calling kettle black at all, you silly woman. Feel free to level that against me the day I practically spit the words ' you fucking prick ' at my child though

And what we need are some SW s who actually DO something as opposed to trying to keep children with shit parents - but of course , as an abuse apologist , you'd not agree with this POV

See... there you are, accusing those who don't agree with you of being an abuse apologist. I find it quite telling that you are not willing to admit that to the passing observer, you "screaming" at your child is no different on the surface to you witnessing someone else screaming at their child - except that you judged and made assumptions based on what you saw. Yet you feel it's unfair for anyone to make those same assumptions about you.

Again. Very much pot and kettle. As you were.

Teddy you're starting to lose all credibility.

Challenge away, I think ones right to, but don't start throwing assumptions about. Don't criticize a system you know nothing about whilst offering no alternatives.

You're opinions are the same as most people, screaming and swearing at a child is less than ideal. No one has said otherwise.

Some people just have the capacity to think around, before and after a topic. Others just froth.

MRS KEITH RICHARDS.

You ask Teddy to ask you what social workers are doing wrong.

Haven't you been told, by various enquiries , when your handling of a case results in tragedy, exactly what you've been doing wrong.

Or have you being paying so little heed to all these lessons that have been learned, the rote response when you've been bollocked, that you honestly need to come on an internet forum and ask complete strangers?

missmarple again, you are opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble.

What do you think they should be doing differently? You criticise, very loudly, but there's no substanance to anything you say.

MrsKeith - the alternative would be that the system actually works and serves the best interests of the children it is meant to be for.

Frequently mentioned on these threads is how poor the outcomes are for children in care - that the care system is underfunded and desperately failing vulnerable children is then used as a reason not to remove children from their families - a double catastrophe.

Many Serious Case Reviews have highlighted that staff working with families (whether ss or other agencies) are prone to letting the needs of the parents overshadow those of the child, being over optimistic about families' capacity for improvement - "Start Again Syndrome" and having thresholds for intervention that were inadequate, leaving children in harmful situations.

The welfare of children is everyone's business, bad things happen when people look the other way. Instead of accusing people of frothing, why not say how they can help?

Not so.

I have given you lots of suggestions but you choose to ignore them all and btw, kindly button down your insulting tone.

I know that it only comes out when a light is shone on your backside, but it only shows that you know you have been rumbled and so doesn't have the effect that you are hoping for.

We can all adopt insulting tones, my dear.

You said earlier, social workers did thousands of things, I was genuinely interested and asked you what some of those things were.

Answer came there none.

if you would like to list say, a mere 20 out of those thousands of things, I think a lot of us would be interested and then we could comment on those. It is useless to talk of doing thousands of thins if you can't list a tiny fraction of them.

Looking forward to reading about them. Ta

You talked of punching people and removing kids - neither of which is really an option on the basis of a 3 minute account of someones day.

SW and related services work tirelessly, more often than not now it's 3rd sector organisations doing the early intervention work that goes unnoticed but prevents further interventions needed.

I've ran various courses for parents, from peer groups allowing parents to chat to each other about their struggles, programmes that have been divised to help build bonds in the early years. I've done outreach work with young parents with zero support and shit backgrounds. One mum I worked with her earliest memory was watching her mum drown her kittens in front of her. She was taken into care soon after and moved from pillar to post, ending up in a home. She started abusing alcohol from the age of 12 and fell in with a man who used to let his friends rape her when she was so out of it she didn't know what was happening. She'd run away, flat in theleep rough and moved onto harder drugs. Any partner she did have was abusive. She fell pregnant at 17 and was put in a tiny flat in the middle of a rough scheme. No friends, no support, no parents. She was reffered to the service I worked for (I'm not a SW by the way) by her midwife who was worried. She didn't have the first clue about what a normal, functioning and nurturing home should look like never mind how to provide one. Because we were able to provide support from pregnancy we worked with her on budgeting, setting up her home, getting ready for the baby, making friends locally. Once the baby arrived she bresatfed and got support with that in the service I worked in through a group we ran. She learnt about attachment, joined the library to go to rhyme sessions. In short she was supported in her growth as a parent. She's doing really well, works part time in the school her child goes to now and writes to me every so often to keep me posted. She credits us with changing her life. God knows where she'd have been without support like that - support most of us can draw from our past, friends, family or feel able to seek out.

But none of that was unusual - work like that goes on every day throughout this country by social work, family support teams, family centres, drop in services, outreach workers.

Helping people make positive choices, physically taking people to appointments they wouldn't have kept. Giving people books, running groups, engaging with people who are to scared to leave the house.

There's fantastic tools out there for working with people. I've used a method where you film people interacting with their children. People who think they are rubbish parents, people who have no confidence in their own abilities, people who don't try. But we film them and put it all together and show them the positivies and help them build on them.

I've put my own kids into nursery and taken parents out with their kids to local attractions, it's been paid for them, I've drove them there and provided lunch. All to show them that it's something they can do, it's a good thing to do.

I've worked through plans with parents who have been warned that they are about to start proceedings to accomodate their children. I've been knee deep in rubbish in someones house trying to make sure they have room for a bed for their child. I've then returned to that house on a weekly basis to help them maintain it, drawn up cleaning rotas with them, seen them smile when they realised their house isn't an aawful place to be and that there is hope. Watched their condidence grow in their own abilities. Seen people start shouting less and talking more to their kids.

I've helped parents with literacy problems with forms to enrol their children into nursery. Forms that they wouldn't have bothered filling in meaning their child wouldn't have got a place because, even if you don't like to think it, there are people out there who are that low in self esteem that they won't ask for help.

Early intervention is key. There is no telling what work like that has prevented.

Things go wrong, it's bloody awful when it happens. I've seen children coming out of care and going back into houses I'd rather they weren't going back to but we work with what's there. I've arranged meetings with the whole family to come up with a plan that focusses on the child and meets their needs. Drawn in long lost relatives to support parents with getting their children home.

I'd still love to hear what you think should be done.

You shout about taking a stand, intervening when you witness behaviour like that but then what? What happens after that? What happens once you've phoned your local SW team and passed your concerns on? What do you think should be done?

MrsKeithRichards - wow. Honestly my hat goes off to you. You - and the many many people like you - are incredible.

I think you are doing a great job MrsKeith

FWIW!!!

I think people are under the impression sw and everyone around them if all about big dramatic actions, taking kids away, dictating to parents, all guns blazing. Increasingly statutory services are limited and can't focus on the prevention work that every single one of them would prefer to be working on. Going in at crisis point is never ideal, sometimes it takes a crisis for things to come to light.