To have confronted this poor excuse for a mother?

[TeddyPickleStick]

So I'm sat at work, window open. I hear a commotion outside so get up and look out the window. There is a heavily pregnant woman with two small children - a boy of around 3 and a girl of maybe 4.

She is screaming at the boy .. ' you fucking piece of shit, what the fuck are you doing? ' and ' Come on you little prick ' etc etc.

I shout down ' Don't do that! Don't say that! ' in complete shock. ' Who the fuck are you? Fuck off ' she shouts back.

I then deliberated on what to do. I felt really angry so ran down the stairs onto the street but she had gone into the bank. And then I ground to a halt and couldn't work out what to do.

So did nothing more. I mean, what CAN you do? Only a bit of swearing after all eh? I have no idea what I would have done if I'd managed to confront her anyway.

I detest this, really hate it. If you swear at your children like this, in the street, then you are a shit parent.

Aren't you?

That's it. Most of us are frightend of confronting them and so the lunatics are running the asylum.

if it were to be more than a one woman crusade, something which every decent person intervened on, it would change.

Why should they get away with it because

1. Some want to look at the whole picture before doing anything
2. The rest of us are scared of them

If we are too wimpy to say anything, then they will have the upper hand because they not only bully their own children, they bully the whole of society.

Personally, if I am twatted by one woman on her own, I will twat her right back and it is likely that she will come off worst but I know not everyone is able to do this. Naturally, I would not dream of doing this unless she took her physical chance with me first.

If a parent can act like that in public where everything can be seen, it always worries me what goes in behind closed doors.

If it was a one off the child is liikely to have shown that in their response, if used to it their reaction will be clear.

Good on you OP for sticking up for the child. If an adult speaks to another adult or smacks them its abuse yet we see it happening to children every day. Whether a one off incident or not, its not right and people should ensure they take steps to protect the chidren.

You sound exactly like my mum missmarplesmarymead

Sadly she lives in a town where it's common to hear people talking to their dc inappropriately but she doesn't think twice about speaking to them about it. I have pointed out that she has to be careful but she doesn't give a toss. She's not some middle class fuddy duddy. She's a straight talking hard as nails northerner. She also has form for running after shoplifters and once when a drunken man said something rude to my sister she jumped in front of her and told him he'd have to get past her.

From looking at this thread this sort of behaviour seems rife in certain parts of the country. All this 'well perhaps she has PND, or SN, or needs support', sometimes people cross the line and regardless of their excuse/reason someone needs to step in. This was one of those times.

I see a trend where regardless of what one does 'someone' will come onto a thread and suggest a excuse and often end up blaming SS, the school, GPs. Anything rather than allow the person concerned to take responsibility.

There there is a certain element of society who think they can do what they like, work, dont work, have children with no means of support, who cares, keep your children off school because you cannot be bothered to get up in the morning, Spend money on yourself FIRST and your children second. Let them roam the streets or keep them at home from a very young age on their own because after all you 'need to have a good time and you are only young once'.

Too right handcream

Again missmarple there's a lot of words there, not a lot of action. Yes you can challenge, you intervene at the point of seeing something happen. That's not what I'm reffering too.

If those who work in a professional capacity with inadequate parents really do fall over themselves looking at why the parent might behave like this instead of stepping in and protecting the child, then I really am not surprised that we regularly, after yet another horrific child abuse case hits the headlines, have social workers wringing their hands and promising to learn lessons....ad nauseum

So you step in, you shame them, you tell them speaking to their child like that is out of order, you call social services. Then what do you think they should do?

I'm not disagreeing with you in the first instance, yes child protection is everyone's concern, we all have a responsibility to act when we see something right.

But once you act, what do you expect the professionals to do? They have to look at why the parent is behaving like that, that is them protecting the child. They can't, don't and won't sweep in and remove a child because of one instance. They don't work like that.

Handcream you seem to be confusing about 10000 issues there.

I think if a parent is behaving like that in public then they need to be flagged. Not given chance after chance and then something awful happens. But social services in many high profile cases are shown to do exactly that when they are faced with much worse than this.

I'm a bit confused now with who has said what tbh. I thought Jassy and northernlurker made particularly good points, which is useful because I am too tired to be very articulate.

OP. it must have been an upsetting thing to witness. I too believe there's a huge difference between swearing in the company of a child and swearing AT them in an abusive way.
. I think it's good, on the whole to pull ppl up on shit that's unacceptable. But it's also important to avoid the trap of acting out in an abusive way as that only fuels the problem.(not saying that's what you did btw) It's complicated.
Obviously ppl are correct in the assertion that if any of us suspects abuse we should engage with the appropriate agencies. Work with these families is complex. Imagine if all SWs or HVs for example did was to shout at the parents they work with "WTF are you doing? Sort your shit out, you're a crap parent!"
There's probably a lot more common ground on this thread than is immediately apparent.
Just a very emotive issue.

Mrs Keith Richards.

I think I am talking about what we do, as a society, before social services have to get involved and I do imagine that the social services are hidebound by a lot of nonsense; if not surely all these high profile cases with directors of social services wringing their hands and saying 'lessons will be learned' would not happen with such regular monotony.

I am suggesting the role that society, us, we as women and mothers could play at the very first point of abuse. That would be by letting these verbally abusive parents know that we will always call them on it because I really do feel (and that's all it is a feeling) that if we introduced the feeling that society will not tolerate it, it would stop some of them.

At the very least we could start to make them feel like the piriahs they are in much the same way that the don't drink and drive campaign made outcasts of those who wanted to do it. One of the things that brought that about was social pressure.

Obviously, there will be hard cases on whom it will have no effect and that unfortunately is where the professionals have to take over.

We must make it beyond the pale that children are called 'cunts' fuckers' 'shits' in an aggressive tone and threatening manner on OUR streets. We can only do that if they are called on it on all the time and know that they will be.

What would you suggest? That just because Social Services have to jump through certain hoops, we should just walk on by when we come into contact with these foul adults.

And no, I'm not interested in why they have become so foul. I am only interested in stopping them spreading their foulness onto defenceless and frightend children.

mrs keith Richards.

I know you are not suggesting that we walk on by and that you are concerned with what happens when social services become involved.

I think that a zero tolerance on the street would mean that it might have an effect, a small one, on the numbers that the social services have to deal with.

How would they deal with them? personally, I favour the impractical and immoral approach of kicking the shit out of them.

In reality, I have no idea but I would suggest that the child comes first and that if that child is within twenty feet of danger, they are removed. I know that will bring another set of problems but given that there is no ideal answer, it at least has the advantage of keeping them physically safe.

An emotionally damaged child can be helped (aren't they being emotionally damaged anyway) but a dead one can't.

good post by missmarple

Whilst your insistence is commendable on one level, it's very naive in many others.

You're repeating what many people, myself included, have said. You've criticised sw approach but offer no alternative.

I certainly have and I'll repeat them.

1. Kick the shit out of them.

2. As the above is not practical, I have suggested that if their child is in danger, the child is taken away.

3. I accept that 2 may cause emotional damage for the child, as they know no better, you know with them being children and probably indoctrinated into thinking that being fucked out of it and thumped is proof of love.

4. however, even taking 3 into account, that emotional damage has a chance of being healed and a dead child doesn't.

5. 4 becomes redundant when one takes into account that tyhey are being emotionally damaged anyway.

So there's my suggestions. What do you think social services should do and why aren't they doing it?

While you're thinking about that.......

How would you deal with a carer who was reported to you for repeatedly calling an SEN adult 'a fucking cunt' and terrifying them?

However, whatever you do in the Social Services my point is about how us, as women and mothers, as society tackle the problem on the ground.

That we do have control over, even though we have no voice or control in how social services deal with it.

It really is time for society to instil a sense of shame in these dreadful adults and social services must do as they will and when they are more successful, then non professionals can step down.

Miss Marple. I am also tired of people making endless excuses for parents like this.

We have to make this behaviour totally unacceptable. Having children and treating them like this (and this women nearly had three of them) is clearly Ok with this women. If she cannot cope with them - why three.

Has anybody heard from yellow or has she been on mn at all. I am very concerned about her neighbours children is there anyway mnhq can track her down?

Kick the shit out of them

That doesn't even warrant a reply

As the above is not practical, I have suggested that if their child is in danger, the child is taken away

Taken away to where? Define danger.

I accept that 2 may cause emotional damage for the child, as they know no better, you know with them being children and probably indoctrinated into thinking that being fucked out of it and thumped is proof of love

I don't really know what you mean by fucked out of it. You're right though, children grow with what they know. Some parents are better than others. Some are never going to be text book excellent, some parents take time to break their own cycle of abuse. Some people have had horrific lives, some are downright nasty, must just don't know any better.

however, even taking 3 into account, that emotional damage has a chance of being healed and a dead child doesn't

That's overly simplified and designed to be emotive

4 becomes redundant when one takes into account that tyhey are being emotionally damaged anyway.

So there's my suggestions. What do you think social services should do and why aren't they doing it

They a are doing it, thousands of times a day, in ways you wouldn't even notice. You only see when it goes wrong.

And wrong it does go, its an extremely difficult role to undertake, I couldnt do it tbh. However after the most tragic cases there seems to be a common theme that SW get close to their cases. They tend to give them the benefit of the doubt when they say they will clear up the pig sty they are living in, they will turn up to school with their children but for me the most worrying issue is other men coming into these women's lives. It seems in some cases a man - any man is better than being on their own and they put their own needs before their children's.

Another thread mentioned that these women dont see the red flags others do. They often come from a background where work was seen as something to get out of and having children often very young with no means of support was the norm.

Yes....what actually is it they are doing 'thousands a time a day." Think you forgot to say.

personally, I don't care what fucked up lives the parents have had in this context and pardon me saying but neither should social services.

very worried to read that some parents 'have to take time to break their own cycle of abuse.' What are children supposed to do while they take this time?

I think the main point of difference between the 2 views on this thread is that one view wants to look at why parents do this and have sympathy for the life experiences that led them to do it and the other view says, in this context, their lives, their experiences are all secondary to making sure that the child isn't abused.

You seem to have rather a defeatist attitude, wringing your hands and asking where can these children go.

Here's a puzzler for you-should any child have to live in a household that would not meet the criteria to foster. You seem to think that will be ok. but if you don't , then why should any child be exposed to it?

Anyway, I conclude that you know bugger all about it and that pains me to say it. By the way, and I'm surprised you couldn't guess which makes me wonder what sort of world you live in- to be fucked out of it means having to stay and listen while someone curses at you. Generally, that person is someone who is being bullied and has no way of escape.

The social services have failed many children and now it is time for society to make bullying and abuse of children a no go area by starting small and intervening in public places. It is all to normal to listen to these hags yelling at their children, confident that no-one will step in.

Well done the OP for doing so and I hope many more of us will follow her excellent and brave example.

I think that behaving like this indicates a basic lack of self control. Of course there may be people may behave worse in private and not in public because they are psychopaths with great self control.

I think it's a reasonable assumption (definitely an assumption, yes) that someone who is behaving like this either sees nothing wrong with it, or is at the end of their tether to such an extent that they are doing the same or worse at home.

I judge because i judge the effect on a child.

Miss Marple is of course right in my view.

We can look into the reasons as to why these apologies for parents do what they do whilst leaving the child in their care and make excuse after excuse or we can as a society pull these people up in public when they behave like this. It then becomes less common, of course it wont stop what they are doing in private but clearly this women is unable to cope (why did she have 3 children - poor choices again I suspect) but we are going down a slippery slope when we try and explain WHY these people do what they do.

Who cares? Get those children out of there. Make fostering less driven by process and form filling.

Miss Marple - have you thought that Mrs Keith Richards IS a SW? She is claiming they are doing 'something' 1000's of times a day. How does she know??

Think its becoming more acceptable (most of us have seen this sort of behaviour) and the people doing it know that they can get away with it.

Unless this women is completely out of it she did it in public because she CAN get away with it. If she has been pulled up before and nothing happened it just confirms that she can continue to do it. Even if SW get involved she will have a 'reason' why she did it and can probably get away with it again.

If she and people behaving in public like this dont care or dont see anything wrong with it what on earth is she doing in private.

yes, I would think Mrs keith Richards is connected with them in some way.

I was amazed when she said, 'define danger' so I hope she isn't. If social workers spend time sitting around trying to define perfectly understandable concepts as danger ( like medieval academics debating how many angels can fit on a pin head) we can hardly expect that they will be able to take quick and decisive action when a child needs help.

Anyway, social workers may do what they like when cases are referred to them. As Mrs Keith Richards said but did not elaborate on, they do thousands of things so hopefully, that scatter gun approach will sometimes hit the target.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.. I'm concerned with not allowing hags and prats to fuck and blind AT their children on the street and think that they can bully the rest of us into staying silent. I don't care if it is a snapshot, if they were treated like themselves or any tale. Children should not have to tolerate this and nor should we.

They get away with it because we allow them to and yes, common sense suggests that if they do this in public, it is very likely that they do a lot more when at home.

To suggest otherwise is almost akin to people in Nazi Germany refusing to accept where those death trains were going because they hadn't seen the final destination for themselves.

We don't always need the ins and outs of a cat's bum to know exactly what is going on.

i 100000% agree that we all need to take a stand when we see this. we can be calm, measured and brave but I think OP did the right thing

I did find it interesting that someone upathread said that despite this, these people often "love their kids, and their kids "love" them back. And that sometimes kids are better (ie happier) in these situations, than in foster care. Thats a twister!!! But knowing human nature, I can beleive this

I am NOT advocating that we dont adress these situation, but that comment made me think.