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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

767 replies

Utterlyastoundedmum · 22/07/2013 14:53

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

OP posts:
MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 13:58

"
You're right. I don't. My experience is with families who rely on food banks, who live below the poverty line and who have significant support to maintain a non-abusive home life for their DCs. Those DCs refer to weekend respite care with a foster family as a holiday because they got taken out for an icecream sad.
So no, I don't understand why holidays are a necessity of life."

Yay! Competitive poverty!

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 13:59

But poor attendance for a weeks holiday and massive amounts of odd days off for the faintest sniffle/not being arsed to catch the bus are very very different things.

That may be the opinion of parents, it's not the opinion of OFSTED.
If attainment and progress is low, and attendance is low, OFSTED don't listen to the explainations - even if the pupils who have been absent have the highest levels progress, the school will be expected to improve attendance and progress.

Mumsyblouse · 24/07/2013 14:01

One of my dd's teacher didn't turn up for at least two weeks out of the last 7, in fact, she was only there about 3.5. in total and we had to cancel parent's evening. But, I do not want Ofsted to monitor her performance and put it in tables to be judged, if she was too ill to face teaching, she was too ill.

Another one had a week off for a wedding which was booked before she took the job. Again, in the scheme of a year, no biggie.

But- I don't want to be starting to resent teachers for taking time off to be ill or to attend a family event, this is exactly the type of divisive thinking that is benefiting nobody. I'm sorry that teachers are driven to the point of stress-disorders by Ofsted, but taking this out on the vast majority of parents who are good parents and do a lot to support the school is not going to help.

Why aren't these headteachers angry that their autonomy to decide what is best for their school and parent/pupil relations has been taken away with them? And that their relationship between them and the parents has been turned into one of enforcing legal contracts. That's where it should really lie.

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:06

Yay! Competitive poverty!

**

Oh, do fuck off, twatkins - or better still, why not volunteer for a school Governing Body so you can put the rest of us to shame by single-handedly changing the system to suit you.

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:09

Why aren't these headteachers angry that their autonomy to decide what is best for their school and parent/pupil relations has been taken away with them?

They are. Very angry. They took a vote of no confidence at their last Conference.

But, it won't change things.

Because the Government that was democratically voted in has decided this is their priority.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 14:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Mumsyblouse · 24/07/2013 14:21

pretty so why blame the decent parents then?

I also work in HE and have numerous bonkers targets to meet set by the government and my employer who wants to meet them, but I don't feel angry at the students who require their work marked quicker, or require twice as much admin.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 14:24

"Because the Government that was democratically voted in has decided this is their priority."

Didn't see this.

This is a way of saying "The government that YOU voted in." I didn't vote this government in. Far from it, so excuse me if I disagree with their policies.

Fairenuff · 24/07/2013 14:26

I think I am above some rules, yes. The rules that take away my judgement, as a parent, to make choices for my family. I am a fairly educated woman. I know that a week away from school isn't going to fuck up my child's chances in life. I am using my judgement on this to say yes, I am above this rule instead of just blindly following it because I am told to by fuckwits in office

This probably sums up the view of the 'average man on the street' who cannot see how a short holiday affects their child's education. And that's because, clearly it doesn't. Provided the child otherwise has good health and good attendance, coupled with support at home, the child will progress through education without any adverse affect.

Although the absence is just a 'one off' for that family, there may be many, many more families thinking the same way and also thinking that their child's absence won't have any affect, that the rules are a nonsense and can be ignored.

In reality, this causes lots of problems for schools who are under enormous pressure from government to achieve targets, set by the government and seen as unimportant by parents.

The Ofsted criteria has recently changed, and one of the criteria that schools are now being assessed against is attendance levels. Ofsted do not care whether a child is absent for a holiday or to hang around smoking on a street corner. Absence is absence. If a school that is currently Ofsted rated 'good' cannot increase their attendance, or maintain it above 95%, there is a strong possibility that at the next Ofsted assessment they will not receive a 'good' status

Parents and school staff probably share the same view but head teachers have had discretion taken out of their hands. Gove is poised to swoop in and make all sorts of changes that inevitably will have an adverse affect on parents.

For example, acadamies will be able to set their own holidays. So if you have two children in two different schools, their holidays may not match. The upheaval to family life is just about to start and it will matter much more to parents than it does now.

I'm thankful that my youngest only has two more years of school to get through because the future of education is looking very uncertain.

The system is ludicrous. Parents don't like it, teaching staff don't like it. Teachers have tried to fight back against all sorts of government changes. I think it needs a parental campaign. Not to make holiday companies charge less - that won't happen in a free market - but a vote of no confidence in Gove might make the government sit up and take notice.

It's only when their jobs are at risk that ministers make changes that the public ask for.

Beechview · 24/07/2013 14:36

My personal experience -
I and my siblings were taken out of school for 2 months every 2/3 years so my parents could visit family back home. This carried on in secondary school.
This didn't cause any disruption to the other children in the school and we did no extra work except reading and maths worksheets.

We all got good results and 2 of us got into grammar schools.
We're all professionals and doing well even though it appears we've missed at least a year and half of school.

This is why I think missing a week or two a year in primary school is of no consequence.

I would not care if a teacher took a week or so off as long as there is a supply teacher.

I also don't understand the 'stick to the rules no matter what' brigade. Apart from all the Osted rubbish, why does it matter so much?

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:39

You're such a stereotypical MNer it's untrue

I hope that I am a stereotypical member of society, at least - I'm not sure I'd enjoy living in a world where everyone only followed the rules that didn't inconvenience them. In other ways, not so much - I don't have an annual holiday, for instance Wink

Are you going to stand as a school governor?

MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 14:39

Grin Hmm

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:40

pretty so why blame the decent parents then?

Not blaming, just expecting them to follow the rules Wink

MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 14:40

What would standing as school governor achieve?! Apart from sending my blood pressure through the roof through having to spend time with officious busy-bodies?!

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:42

I would not care if a teacher took a week or so off as long as there is a supply teacher

Would you pay more taxes to pay for the cover - or are teachers expected to take unpaid holiday?

mam29 · 24/07/2013 14:44

but its not just down to money at end of day.

if the employer will only authorise term time holidays,

that you happen to have kids at 2 maybe 3diffrent schools with different holidays.

sounds extreme but i know a couple with eldest in seniors and 2 in diffrent primaryies or infant and juniors.

Lots of people live on borders 2counties.

my step sons holidays in wales were week out from bristols.

if you english and live scottish border good example.

i know people one kid private one state so private have longer hols.

the 2 independents that turned state acadmemies still do more hols yet they unded exacly same way as comp down the road.

its a logistical nightmare especially 2 working parents balanced with cost.

i dont like idea of telling my child to lie and pretend to be sick.

why they removed the discretion i dont know.

i have freind whos year teacher was off most of this year as she was deputy heads and they had loads of stand ins. It affected the class.

i dont begrudge teachers say 1 weeks term time holiday a year know teachers sick longer than that.

Also on the subject of teachers.

would a teachers childcare bill be lower than a parent who does not work in term time?

A lot of teachers i know send kids same school they teach, a lot work part time so 2-3days a week.

so maybe it evens out maybe not.

IWipeArses · 24/07/2013 14:44

Gosh, following rules is easy. I prefer to think for myself.

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:46

What would standing as school governor achieve?! Apart from sending my blood pressure through the roof through having to spend time with officious busy-bodies?!

twatkins you could change the system! Refuse to be restricted by the rules! Get your voice heard!

Clearly, you have no respect for the current Governors at your DCs school, so rather than just whining about how crap they and the system is, why not get involved and give something back - rather then just take what you want and damn the consequences on others?

MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 14:47

Me too, IWipeArses.

As you get older, you start to realise that not all rules are made for anyone's benefit other than those at the top. So you question and disobey them more.

Hercule · 24/07/2013 14:47

The hike in the price of holidays during the school breaks is an unavoidable side-effect of a large number of people wanting to go on holiday during those periods. That's how 'peak' pricing works. If it was the same price all year round there would not be enough 'holidays' ( ie flights, hotel rooms etc) to go round in August ( so not everyone could go then anyway) and not enough people wanting to go on holiday during off-peak times, making the hotels/travel companies financially unsustainable. The difference in prices of things is how economics works, demand and supply and all that.

Not got any particular axe to grind re holidaying in term time just find the idea that we could fix the issue by somehow forcing the holiday counties to reduce the price differential frustrating. As someone upthread said, there isn't the capacity for everyone in Britain to go on holiday during the same 6 week period.

Of course if somehow it were possible for everyone ( including teachers) to have 2 weeks 'annual leave' which they could take any time it would to some extent alleviate the problem. However From conversations I have had with teachers I think most would say that system would be impossible to manage, and for various reasons would be a disaster?

MarmaladeTwatkins · 24/07/2013 14:49

I'm refusing to be restricted by the rules already. I don't need to become a governor to be able to do that.

And I do give back. Being a parent governor isn't the only way of contributing to the school. And you are demented if you think that one lone parent standing as governor will change anything.

Beechview · 24/07/2013 14:50

I would assume that if a teacher wanted to take a term time holiday then they follow a process similar to taking a child out ie ask for it to be approved. The head can then decide.
I just think that there should be more leniency.

Why would it cost more than if the teacher had the flu for a week?

trolleycoin · 24/07/2013 14:50

Naff policy from out of touch government to make a quick £ and who would rather faff around the edges than tackle the real issue.

I used to work in a high school. There was a hardcore of about 40 kids who could never be bothered and if they did, they rolled in at 10.30am. Friday afternoon they would scarper to get ready for the boozing weekend.

I also remember maybe a similar number of BAME kids disappearing for weeks and weeks as they'd gone back to family in certain countries. Is this OK? Does this damage their education.

trolleycoin · 24/07/2013 14:51

Naff policy from out of touch government to make a quick £ and who would rather faff around the edges than tackle the real issue.

I used to work in a high school. There was a hardcore of about 40 kids who could never be bothered and if they did, they rolled in at 10.30am. Friday afternoon they would scarper to get ready for the boozing weekend.

I also remember maybe a similar number of BAME kids disappearing for weeks and weeks as they'd gone back to family in certain countries. Is this OK? Does this damage their education?

PrettyPaperweight · 24/07/2013 14:55

As you get older, you start to realise that not all rules are made for anyone's benefit other than those at the top. So you question and disobey them more.

Disobedience isn't a sign of maturity - any teenager can demonstrate that!

Maturity is demonstrated by an acceptance of the consequences of disobedience, rather than the petulant, foot-stamping its not fair, I don't want to follow the rules, they don't apply to me attitude displayed by many.