OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

[Utterlyastoundedmum]

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

Yes that is it mumsyblouse it all gets contractual.

Could they be somehow trying to raise money as well?

It is going to be hard enough for parents when CCV are scrapped.

Holidays can be an amazing educational experience and to say that a HT's job is at risk because a pupil takes an out of term break is ridiculous.

Exactly mumsyblouse! I really like our ht and understand that she is just following what she has been told, but she was fuming that the lea were telling us different things!

PPT I think you may be prone to a bit of exaggeration re the HT example.

Code B

Really good post mummyblouse and i wholeheartidly agree with you.
Schools are becoming like the nhs, when they fail instead of bringing teachers & kids together to enrich their education they bring ofsted in and pens & paper and beauricity is all that counts.

Did the voices in your head tell you that? If not, how can you possibly know.

Actually, I was chairing the meeting of parents who in one breath were slating the school for the poor OFSTED results and in the next refusing to accept the Heads request to stop taking holiday and arguing that they had a right to a holiday.

Of course, it could all be in my head, it's been a horrible term.

Some if us have to live with the consequences of your choices. Its not easy. Yes, I volunteer to do it. Do you?

Can't we just start a powerful MN campaign demanding that the govt stop travel companies and airlines from upping prices during school holidays, which will remove the need for 95% of the arguments taking place in this thread!

^^even if the school is outstanding in all other areas, it won't get an overall
Outstanding if attendance is below 95%.

Of course it will. All it needs is to get a Good for the welfare section - which it can, even with lousy attendance - ours did. Attendance, even under the new regime, is like I say one part of one component (welfare etc). I don't know why you're doom-mongering so much.

giddywithglee, you really haven't thought that through. The travel companies don't raise prices during school holidays, they lower them at other times. Do you really think it would be possible for everyone with children to go on holiday during the 6 week holiday period?

PPW it is great that you volunteer but you don't get it when it comes to holidays and why they are important to others.

Giddy if only but wouldn't MN not want to participate because it might hurt their advertising revenue??

I want my kids to learn in a variety of ways and not be taught by stressed out teachers dictated to by Ofsted. I couldn't care less about such results in my area most of the schools are poorly rated so I am already thinking I will have to do a lot of home education.

Thanks again wallison

There has been plenty of Media coverage about Headteachers 'moving on' after poor OFSTED reports - which include statements like 'attendance is not good enough'.

Of course, referring to my own experience would 'out' me but I'm sure if you were interested you could look at the recent coverage about the counties I mentioned earlier....there are two secondary schools in one of those areas who have recently 'lost' Headteachers.....

.motown I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse. No one said one instance of term time holiday would cause a head to be directly sacked. Every instance contributes to the likelihood though and I'm sure you will be able to find instances of heads losing their jobs for failure to maintain what Ofsted expects.

I'm sure if you were interested you could look at the recent coverage about the counties I mentioned earlier....there are two secondary schools in one of those areas who have recently 'lost' Headteachers.....

I think that in the two areas you mentioned earlier, attendance is a miniscule part of the reasons they are failing and for the heads losing their jobs

In one of those areas, Social Services have also been judged as inadequate.

I don't know this person, but a friend had commented on their status on FB so saw the whole thing.

Basically they booked to take their child on holiday and chose a week mid-term. Except when the term calendar came out at the beginning of the school year, it turned out they were missing a week involving a trip and a theatre group coming into school.

This person was going ballistic that school hadn't agreed to change the activities so their child wouldn't miss them.

I must admit I had a chortle at their utter twattishness!

np motownmover (I love Motown btw).

PPW it is great that you volunteer but you don't get it when it comes to holidays and why they are important to others.

You're right. I don't. My experience is with families who rely on food banks, who live below the poverty line and who have significant support to maintain a non-abusive home life for their DCs. Those DCs refer to weekend respite care with a foster family as a holiday because they got taken out for an icecream .
So no, I don't understand why holidays are a necessity of life.

(And before you ask, I didn't have regular holidays as a child, my DDs last holiday was 5 years ago and have never been on holiday with my DP - so yes, I do know what it's like).

Look all this talk of OFSTED and special measures is making me feel ill. The primary school I work for just came out of special measures. It is not an experience that any of us who are lucky enough to be left working there want to repeat again in a hurry.

Attendance was a HUGE issue. We managed,with awards ,certificates and rigourously applied rules to get the percentage back up to acceptable.

And some of the teachers have been brought to their knees,and some actually ousted ,for rigourously applied rules about Pupil Progress. And guess who the ones not making enough progress are?...the ones who have poor attendance.

Now tell me it doesn't matter.

Jamsdought, huge sympathies over SM, it is an utterly shit process.

But poor attendance for a weeks holiday and massive amounts of odd days off for the faintest sniffle/not being arsed to catch the bus are very very different things.

Likewise DD missed a week of Y7 with the virus from hell and still hit every target that term.

Attitude to education is far more important.

jamdonut thank you Well done for getting through it. I can empathise; it's horrible for everyone involved.

jamdonut - and your school managed to do it before the bollocks regime of September 2013 comes into play.

If yours can others can. They don't need to bring in any new guidance then do then?

the ones not making enough progress are?...the ones who have poor attendance.- so this would be the ones taking a week off a year for a family holiday would it, or the parents who have failed to get their children to school on time more then once or twice a week for years or have every Friday off or say they can't make their children go to school and don't care if they get fined?

I see one mum most days where I live with her two children after I've dropped mine off, she must be 45 min late every single day, the LEA even paid for her to get a taxi there to try to get the children there on time, I've seen the taxi pulling up late as well! It would not be surprising if poor attendance was a proxy for other issues in this situation that would result in poor progress, as I'm sure it is for many very poor attenders (waaaay below 95%).

That's why this was better as a discretionary issue within limits (10 days a year).

Several people have (like Tabitha) suggested that the answer to this problem is for the government to introduce legislation limiting the amount holiday companies can charge during school holidays. How on earth do they think that will work??

So far as foreign holidays are concerned the prices charged by UK tour operators depend largely on the prices charged by foreign hotels/resorts/campsites/holiday cottage owners etc and by the airlines. Do these people really think the UK government can dictate the price of hotel accomodation in another country? The charter airlines' prices are dictated by supply and demand - and if they can't charge a price reflecting the demand in the UK in say, August, they will divert their services to meet the demand in other countries where they can charge a higher price. And how can a scheduled airline or Eurostar tell whether seats booked on a flight/train to Paris are for business or a trip to Euro Disney?

Yes, the legislation could bind those providing UK holidays. But that would simply lead to a massive over demand in school holidays (ie there would be far too few beds available for all those who wanted to book them) and perhaps a massive oversupply of places at other times (if there was a corresponding increase in prices at low season times, people not restricted to booking in school holidays would find foreign holidays comparatively cheaper). All in all it would be bound to lead to a huge contraction in the UK tourist industry with consequent job losses and impact on the economy. So that would be really clever!

People are just going to have to realise that if you have children, and you can't afford to go on holiday during school holidays, you can't afford to go on holiday full stop.

" Not to mention the outrage - how would you feel if your DC's teacher didn't turn up for two weeks because they fancied a fortnight in the sun?"

Honestly, I wouldn't give two shits. Why would I? Presumably there would be a supply teacher filling in? I wouldn't care less.

Like I say, this thing about OFSTED and figures has fuck all to do with me, or other parents. So why are they insisting on making it about parents? How dare they pin this "guilt" on us, "if you take your child out for a week's holiday YOU are responsible for head's getting sacked/special measures!" Oh do fuck off. It's the system that's flawed. not parents who just want their children to have a nice time with their family. Jeez, more people should be encouraged to engage in some family time. There is a boy in DS's class who will be going to a beach for ONE DAY in the 6 weeks, his first time at the seaside!