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Original poster

OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

767 replies

Utterlyastoundedmum · 22/07/2013 14:53

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

OP posts:
Tilly333 · 23/07/2013 15:11

I'll say it again... DD just home from last day at school.... watched 3 films instead of rounders as the playing field was wet - (didn't stop the boys from playing football though)... why should I not book a cheaper holiday if they are not going to learn anything? and when I do - get a £60 fine !

PrettyPaperweight · 23/07/2013 15:18

tilly The two issues aren't linked though - if you are dissatisfied with the quality of education provided, and yiu believe it fails to fulfil the commitment made to you by the school, there are procedures you can follow to address that.

It's a simple contract between you and the school - they deliver a certain standard of education (at no charge), and you commit to following the rules about uniform, attendance, behaviour etc.
No different from any other contract Smile

PrettyPaperweight · 23/07/2013 15:32

To be totally accurate, the contract is with the local authority for grant maintained, non-academy schools!

Aquamildred · 23/07/2013 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maddy68 · 23/07/2013 16:05

It's pretty standard now. The LA fines parents yes it is legal. Blame the government

OddBoots · 23/07/2013 16:55

I wonder what would happen to holiday prices if (say) pupils were allowed to have up to 10 days off in the final 4-5 weeks of term after the assessment stuff was all done if their parents wished.

IWipeArses · 23/07/2013 17:06

Cockyfox, why isn't tasting the food somewhere educational? Is it not part of culture? Or is it because the child might enjoy themselves?

CalamityJ · 23/07/2013 18:36

My DH is going to train to be a teacher so all our family holidays will be in school holiday season even though our DD is only 5 months old and pre school. I'm definitely in the minority on this thread but I completely disagree with taking children out of school for holidays. I know they're a billion pounds more expensive in holiday time, I know people want family time together and I know holidays can be educational but... I believe it sends the wrong message to kids about the importance of school. School should be their number 1 priority Monday to Friday except for weddings, funerals and sickness (none of those are in parental control)

My sister has taken her kids out of school a few days early to save £1500 which I appreciate is a lot but you don't have to have a foreign holiday every year. It's a treat not a right. If you can't afford to go away where you want in holiday time blame the greedy bastard travel companies and airlines. If there should be legislation it should be that peak and off peak can only be a limited % difference rather than double for example. That's the root of the problem not encouraging kids to miss school. If you want family time together you can have a 'staycation' and go to places in Britain locally. Family time is about the family being together not necessarily somewhere hot with a beach. I'm not saying people don't deserve a break if they work 60+ hours a week but when did we start deciding it was something we were entitled to at the cost of setting a good example about the importance of school? Foreign holidays used to be for the more wealthy but with the lowered cost of foreign travel they're more accessible to the majority (and rightly so). However if they're only accessible if you take your kids out of school then they're not really accessible are they? You're still paying a price but the cost is to your children's education. The government has recognised this and has decided to talk a language people understand and are financially penalising those who don't place as high a value on their children's education as the government believes they should.

Not a popular view I'm sure but putting the other side of the argument across as I think it's a good move by the government.

TheHumancatapult · 23/07/2013 19:38

Iwipe

I seen what they doing and it's s generic 6th form trip nothing in there related to what ds2 be studying . Theatre and shopping and sightseeing of nyc kind are not his thing so in his case not its not educational . He much rather go to Russia which least is related to something he studying

Not saying for some its not educational but for him no and that's his opinion not mine

Fairenuff · 23/07/2013 19:46

I wonder what would happen to holiday prices if (say) pupils were allowed to have up to 10 days off in the final 4-5 weeks of term after the assessment stuff was all done

Where do you get this from Odd. Some terms are only 7 weeks long, how can the last 4-5 be after assessments. Usually teaching takes place right up until the last week of summer term when there are other activities such as sports days, achievement assemblies, and, yes, assessments. Children are generally assessed at the end of each term.

TheHumancatapult · 23/07/2013 19:47

Prince and I wipe maybe for you

it was but Ds2 has no interest. and even less following a school schedule of trips /activities there . Shrug he a young man quite caperable of deciding for himself what he wants see /do /go He refused trip Disney that younger siblings going on has no interest for him

Hels reality is ds3 may not be alive to do it age 19 or evrn 13 or well enough to travel so feck it . Optunity presented itself and I grabbed it both hands and stuff what anyone else cares .

Wuldric · 23/07/2013 19:49

Not once has anyone commented about the impact upon the school and the teachers of having the children out of school.

Say you are an overworked and underpaid teacher. Which, if you are a teacher is pretty likely tbh. You are teaching a class of 32. All 32 children decide for reasons of economy to take their holidays in term-time. You are expected to provide update work and catch up work for all 32. Even if not expected, you'll probably have to do it anyway. On top of this the school gets into trouble with Ofsted for its attendance record.

This thread is the very reason why these rules are now being enforced and why they are a jolly good thing. Parent after parent was doing the maths and deciding to take their kids out of school. Which is unfair to the teachers, to the school, and sends entirely the wrong message about education.

IWipeArses · 23/07/2013 20:03

Even if all he learnt was that he hates New York and musical theatre is not for him, he learnt something Humancatapult.

HorryIsUpduffed · 23/07/2013 20:05

Wuldric I am resisting telling you to rtft because several people have cited the impact on the staff and other pupils... Wink Grin

Fairenuff · 23/07/2013 20:08

wuldic it does, obviously, have an impact on teaching. I had to test the whole class on spellings in the last week of term. It only took 20 minutes but there were four children away and they missed the assessment.

The next day, two of the children returned so I was able to test them but it still took 20 minutes so that's now 40 minutes on a 20 minute job.

Last day of term the other two children returned and, yes, I had to spend another 20 minutes testing them. So, in all a 20 minute job took an hour of school time.

This is just one example of what can happen over and over again.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 23/07/2013 20:23

There are an awful lot of cat's arse-mouthed rule-sticklers on here. So holidays is the one thing you don't maind being dictated to on. What about if the LEAs started throwing their weight about things that did bother you? Would you be crawling up their arses to defend them still?

BeQuicksieorBeDead · 23/07/2013 20:33

I can understand the frustration for parents. I am a teacher and have spoken to lots of parents who would not have lovely holidays if they went in the school holidays.

It is no longer at the discretion of the school to authorise absence. That means that the la will have to investigate absences. The school will take the flak if they haven't enforced the rule. Our attendance target set by the la is 95% - our head teacher has to show he has taken steps to ensure this. His own performance management targets and pay progression is based on the target.

Once again, schools have been pitted against parents, when neither has any say on the issue. We dont have the authority to allow term time holidays, even in the last week of term when we know it wouldn't be as damaging as say, a week in September. Our head has actually organised our inset days so that parents can book a weeks holiday in term time, and sold it to parents that way - very popular but I bet the local authority put a stop to it next year. They are also under immense pressure.

Just wait until Gove encourages all the academies to move their holidays around - the holiday operators will block out the whole of april to october as high season!

Wuldric · 23/07/2013 20:46

Marmalade You are frustrated, but there is nothing of a 'cat's arse-mouthed rule-stickler' about me. This policy is just right - for the kids, for the schools, for the greater good, really.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 23/07/2013 20:54

I'm not frustrated. I will still take my child on holiday when I like.

I'm more annoyed at the weirdoes on here acting like taking your kid out for a week is tantamount to letting them be home-schooled by the cat. It isn't us parents who take our children's education seriously but can balance that out with the need for a break very occasionally, that are shagging the system up. It's the ones like the one I mentioned earlier, that cba taking their kids in some days but will take them shopping, or cba to turn up to parent's evening or help them complete homework. The parents that ensure their children are in school when they should be and request a week off to be authorised are being penalised instead of it being judged on a case-by-case basis. There is no need other than to make more money for the government and to make sure that poor people can do even less under this government.

BeQuicksieorBeDead · 23/07/2013 21:02

But judging in a case by case basis means that the la and government can't clobber anyone. That aint gonna wash! Plus how would you define a worthy holiday, where do you draw the line? The government obviously dont think head teachers have been doing a good enough job at deciding!

I agree that most parents that take a term time holiday are doing so for the benefit of the family, not to take the piss...but the piss takers will cry unfair treatment when their kids are fined for being at home watching tv all day or down the shops.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 23/07/2013 21:04

Well, I assumed that authorisation was granted on attendance? It is at our school anyway. DS's friend got denied last year as he was at 84%!

BeQuicksieorBeDead · 23/07/2013 21:12

We used to be allowed to authorise ten days a year, and more at our discretion... That worked well for us. Our head has a great relationship with parents and is very family orientated. However, some people are asking for that on to of three or four weeks ' sickness' when the kids come back saying parents couldnt be bothered, or that they were in skegness. The la got very pissed off and raised our attendance.target to 95%. If we dont hit it, our head is in shit. That was before this no authorisation thing came in.

Our parents are frustrated because they dont want to break the rules and in the past it has been fine...barriers go up between school and community and it isnt parents or teachers deciding this. Our head gets the complaints and abuse but what can he do? The local authority can remove him from post if he doesnt do his ' job'.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 23/07/2013 21:15

So where will your head stand if he refuses time off (as he will HAVE to under these new guidelines) yet the parents still take the children out and pay the fine? Because AFAIAC, he has done his job by refusing.

Wuldric · 23/07/2013 21:20

Marmalade

You say

"It isn't us parents who take our children's education seriously but can balance that out with the need for a break very occasionally, that are shagging the system up. It's the ones like the one I mentioned earlier, that cba taking their kids in some days but will take them shopping, or cba to turn up to parent's evening or help them complete homework."

But how can you tell the two apart? Both sets of parents (if in fact they are separate sets, which is open to doubt) think they know better, both sets are undermining the school and creating additional work for teachers. How can you tell the two apart? I can't.

ilovesooty · 23/07/2013 21:23

So where will your head stand if he refuses time off (as he will HAVE to under these new guidelines) yet the parents still take the children out and pay the fine? Because AFAIAC, he has done his job by refusing

The school's Ofsted rating will be at risk. It might even go into special measures. If it does, the Head might well lose his job.