OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

[Utterlyastoundedmum]

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

I think that the general public believe that if something is fun, genuinely enjoyable, then it can't be educational.

I was thinking about this last night, and it seems to me more and more that this is just an income generation idea. Most people will just pay the fines and go anyway, and enforcing the fines just means for income for the LEA.

I know they won't give permission as others have had a big no. School obsessed with attendance, don't send home if unwell. I had to get a consultants letter so dd can come home with one of her many migraines.

Bit if an expensive wedding though
Presents hotels outfits travel and oh yes a fine.
That's a new one for the wedding threads

I am very surprised that in a thread of 380 posts nobody has yet suggested that it is reasonable to make parents take into account the cost of the education their child will be missing by taking holiday in term time.

I read the other day that a school place costs £4,000 to £10,000 pa. If a child at a school where the cost of a place is £10,000 pa misses a week then £250 worth of education goes to waste. State education is free to all, but someone (the nation, the state, the taxpayer - call it what you will) pays for the education your child receives. I think its fair enough to make parents take into account this cost when considering taking a term time holiday, and fair enough to require the parent to pay a fine to recompense the state for the cost of the education they've chosen not to use.

Someone upthread said that in this country education is not a privelege because its free for all. That is so wrong - an education is a privelege regardless of cost....

for the poorer amongst us - those of us who cannot afford to go away in holidays, I guess life just gets more expensive.

wealthy people wont care about the fine, will just pay with out a second thought to go away.

Yes, I know people who would think nothing of a £60 fine. The holiday itself is costing so much more than that so why worry.

Once more it penalises poorer families for having less money, and not being able to avoid premium time holidays...

I dunno, it makes no sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to add the cost of education into taking a holiday, as the state has to pay that regardless of whether the child is there or not. It is not costing the state anything to have a child not in class for a week during term time.

Yes they are for real and why not make them legally enforceable ?

We choose not to holiday in term-time despite the savings and the fact that the dc are fairly bright and won't suffer educationally as a result because it is disruptive to the teacher's planning/lessons schedule, having to bring various children back up to speed with what they've missed at various times of the year.

It's a bug bear of mine that parents do it year after year after year. So their children can have 2 weeks of sun & fun on the cheap and then expect teachers to make sure their children reach the required SATs level improvement each year. One child at our old school was clearly in need of much attention to assist them but they holidayed TWICE a year tagging an extra week onto the October and May half-terms and the parents didn't seem to connect this with being called into "stalled progress" meetings at least once. Not totally connected perhaps but not helpful in supporting their child's learning experience

I feel for the teachers, they can't holiday in term time and they aren't particularly well paid.

Well we have already booked our holiday for June next year. The DCs (2 are school age) are going to miss school. I dont really give a rats arse if people dont like it. They can just do one ASAIC.

PS I thought about being a teacher once and decided that along with other reasons I dont want to HAVE to go on holiday in August. So didn't become one.

Its just a money making scheme from the government.

I think the average person not involved in education doesn't really understand how teaching works.

For example, say that Year 2 are doing topic work based on science. They are learning about electrical circuits. If the child is absent, they will miss the work.

From the parents' point of view it's not a problem. They can teach their child about electrical circuits and they won't have missed that part of their education.

From a teaching point of view, the teacher has a set framework for the children to present their initial knowledge, their predictions, their observations and their conclusions based on a controlled experiment in the classroom.

The reason that the teaching is done like this is because the teacher needs to provide evidence of the child's learning. The headteacher will want to see this work from time to time to assess that the progress being made is in line with the teacher's assessment. Children's work can be selected at random.

The headteacher needs to do this because they are answerable to Ofsted so they need to be able to produce evidence to support their findings.

If children miss this it is often not practicable to repeat the lessons. What would the rest of the class do whilst the teacher is re-teaching? There are also lots of other assessments taking place throughout the year but especially just before the children break up for half term or end of term, because this is a good time to measure progress.

Parents think the last week of term is a good time to take the children out because they won't be missing much but it does cause a problem for many teachers and headteachers.

All of this is government led. On top of this, headteachers are under pressure from government to crack down on absence. Absence figures are factored into Ofsted 'scoring' of schools so no matter how good the teaching is, high absence will give the school a lower grade. If schools become undersubscribed they will get less funding from the government so obviously headteachers want to avoid this at all costs.

Schools, caught between what the government wants and what parents want are just trying to do what is in the best interests of the children.

The school didn't authorise my childrens' 3 day absence for a holiday last year but I spoke to the school secretary and she said that she didn't think it would be a problem - just that the schools can no longer officially give permission. Speak to your school and explain you made the booking before you knew the rules and see what they say.

I do think however, that parents shouldn't do it constantly - like the family that take 2 extra weeks a year - but if a family hasn't had a holiday for many many years (as we hadn't) and it was a coach tour so was only available at that particular time .... our school does allow teachers time off during term time as well though and of course there are the residential trips always during term time which not all children can go on and those that can't go have to do normal lessons which means those that can go will be missing actual lessons.

I want to take my children to Richard III funeral next year. Do you think that would count as 'time off to go to a funeral' and be accepted?

My dad was a teacher, I didn't go on a sunshine holiday abroad until I was 15 when he got a headship because teachers salaries back then were a joke and mortgage rates were ridiculous. We used to have a few days in Scarborough, there wasn't an option of going in term time.

Day trips were educational for us as the only ones we went on were to places that my dad phoned and asked if he could bring his family round free or at a reduced rate if he brought a school trip there later in the year.

So i have never taken my children out of school for holidays and never will I do (as not having proper holidays didn't affect my childhood) I do think that trips can be educational (as long as you are learning a place's culture and history not just trying the food) and some times parents can't be off in the school holidays so there shouldn't be fines.

Nice attitudes about people not giving a rats arse that them taking their kids out of school may not only affect their children but others in the class as well.

Children won't be traumatised if they don't have a holiday. I would hope that if the fines don't work they will do something else to stop it.

Lilleth and several others have said this is a money-making scheme by the government. I have no doubt that it will cost more to collect these fines than the amount of the fines so I'm sure that's not the reason behind it. More likely to be trying to discourage parents from squandering the nation's resources which have been dedicated to the education of their child.

In Germany there were actually cases where parents with children that looked like they should still be in school were caught at airports and stopped or reported. You'd never be allowed to apply for your children to stay away from school because of holidays, it'd have to be a funeral or doctor's appointment - even weddings are generally always on weekends as teachers/students just would not get time off to attend.

Depending on where you live they can charge you up to ?1000 per day of unallowed absence. Just to give a bit of perspective!

I think you can make a bit of an argument that in the last few days before summer hols there isn't a lot of actual education going on - in our case, since all the marks were in, the last 10-14 days were just filler space, some teachers would really just bring in crosswords and riddles or make us watch any halfway educational video they could find. One memorable year we watched 'Big Daddy' in English class - very educational....

While I can understand the problems with people not able to take time off in school holidays many of those using cost as a reason need to re-think their priorities.
Your child will not suffer from not visiting Disneyland you know. My DD would love to go but she won't be able to. Will she be traumatised for life? I doubt it. We would like to take holidays abroad...but can not afford it. Our holiday this year will be a week camping...£200.
If you are saying it costs £7K in school hols and £3k in term time for the same holiday meaning you can not afford the school hols then find a £3K holiday............

schools are obsessed with attendance because it affects their Ofsted rating.

And as another poster said up-thread, in lesson observations (which also affect Ofsted ratings) teachers have to demonstrate that they are moving children on in their learning. So if a child has missed a week's worth of lessons, it is hard to build on knowledge they should have but don't. Unfair on teachers (who are individually judged on lesson observations), unfair on the other kids in the class (who won't get the teacher's time because they are having to devote it to the hold who missed lessons), unfair on the school.

If you're willing to take your child out for unauthorised absences, be prepared to accept that your child's school's Ofsted rating may suffer as a result.

*child not hold, silly auto correct!

Unfair on teachers (who are individually judged on lesson observations)

....and from September, teachers pay progression depends on these lesson observations - so a class teacher who has high levels of abscence in their class may struggle to evidence the targets they have to achieve

Quite frankly it's about time that absence from school with no good reason was made painful for parents.

When we approached an LEA a few years back re absentee-ism they said "We don't check up on absences under 85% missing or we'd never cope"

Perhaps now they'll have to cope. As will the parents who just must do during term time for financial reasons

All those who can't afford school break holidays and are against the fine system: what would your attitude be to your children's teachers using the same arguments to go on a fortnight's term-time holiday?

I agree with PrettyPaperWeight- outside exceptional circumstances, you can't pick and choose which parts of the schools' conditions you intend to abide by (well, you can, but not without consequences).

And my childhood was like CockyFox's: both parents in education, holidays too expensive so, other than staying with family occasionally, we never went.

That's not to say I wholeheartedly support this measure, or anything, I'm just a bit surprised at the shock!horror!outrage! reaction of many posters.