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AIBU?

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Original poster

OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

767 replies

Utterlyastoundedmum · 22/07/2013 14:53

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

OP posts:
HappyMummyOfOne · 22/07/2013 20:36

I think its great that they are clamping down, children get 13 weeks a year and 52 weekends off school so no excuse. Added to that, a holiday is a luxury and not essential.

Parents use school results, ofsted etc when choosing a school yet are quite happy to then affect future ones by removing their child term time.

revealall · 22/07/2013 20:37

Well what about my situation. I am taking my DS for 4 days in September because we have a completely free holiday to the South of France. My friend is working out there and her company are paying for it all.

As a single parent I could never afford to holiday in Monte Carlo even for four days. It may or may not be educational but in terms of social/human capital it will be priceless. It also lets me pick up work Monday as we are going Tuesday - Friday.

hermioneweasley · 22/07/2013 20:37

If education is so valued, why not fine parents whose kids don't do their homework (or blatantly do it for their kids!). Why not fine parents who are persistently late, disrupting the entire class several times a week when they come in late again? It's a crude approach to hit a crude target - get unauthorised absences to a certain level. It's one of the reasons most of the schools around us close at the first flake of snow - if the school is closed, then there are no unAuthorised absences. If they stay open and kids don't make it in, then it hits their figures.

The system we had was fine - HTs could authorise for those kids that they knew woukdn't suffer educationally for missing a week and apply discretion and judgement. If kids already had high levels of absence or were struggling, then decline.

How can you be fit to lead a complex organisation such as a school but not be trusted to make a simole judgement like that?

hermioneweasley · 22/07/2013 20:38

Marmalade - you are not thinking small enough. In coppers please!

motownmover · 22/07/2013 20:42

Really I think Crash was going off on a deserving or underserving holiday stance much like we have the deserving and underserving poor.

Happymummyofone actually a lot of parents in London don't have a chance of choosing a school according to Ofsted.

Go for it revealall and enjoy!

MrsTedMosby · 22/07/2013 20:42

My child. Not the governments. I will decide when I take MY child on holiday. Really pissed off at the government deciding what I can do and when with my child.

Not that I'm going to take them out, because I work in a school, but I hate being told that I can't.

And already the "illnesses" are starting, amazing how many ill children there have been where the family can't be contacted at home for a week.

YonisAreForever · 22/07/2013 20:44

hermioneweasley

Exaxclty , you have hit nail on head there

YonisAreForever · 22/07/2013 20:45

Good idea marmelade, I think lots of us will have a holiday fine jar!

trolleycoin · 22/07/2013 20:45

Spot on Hermione.

Where do the fines go to? Which coffers are they allocated to?

What about Gove's ideas of longer school hours and scrapping the long summer break as its based on agricultural requirements? Would that mean more parents taking kids out of school for holidays?

crashdoll · 22/07/2013 20:46

Give it a rest, motown I explained myself. Stop talking shite!

MarmaladeTwatkins · 22/07/2013 20:50

"Added to that, a holiday is a luxury and not essential."

I don't think it is up to you to decide for other families what is a luxury and what is an essential. My DH is close to depression due to his job. A week/10 days family time is hallowed. It IS essential, to us.

dippingbackin · 22/07/2013 20:51

As a teacher (and a parent), I totally understand why students are taken out of school during term time. However, what I do not understand is when the parents demand huge amounts of work to be supplied and then complain two weeks after their return that their child did not understand the entire Chemistry module they have missed.

If you want your child to learn, keep them at school, if you want a holiday then make it exactly that. Do not expect me to re-teach an entire fortnights worth of work to one child - essentially free tutoring on top of the cheaper holiday.

servingwench · 22/07/2013 20:55

The letter we had at dd's school was great...the governors are taking a hard line on this topic....that's the same governor that just had a week long holiday and took his 3 kids out of school Grin

EBearhug · 22/07/2013 20:58

Taking kids out of school during termtime is just saying to them "school rules dont count, they are there to be bent or broken when it suits us", then its just a downward spiral of sickies, duvet days, etc because kids learn from their closest role models. If you only ever give them the message that school comes first, period, that will be the value they uphold through life, because it is part of their belief system.

I don't agree with this. I grew up with the message that school definitely came first, but you could ask for privileges and do things if you had permission first. We were absolutely not allowed sickies - I had about 3 sick days off school in my life, and it would have been fewer than that if I hadn't vomited up my breakfast as I went out the door to get the school bus...

Being able to justify why something should be allowed is a useful skill to learn. My parents had to justify why they wanted to justify taking us out of school in term time. It's not dissimilar from having to do business justifications and so on at work. (Or asking for a day's leave when it would leave the office shorthanded. Ahem.)

hermioneweasley · 22/07/2013 20:59

Dippingbackin - I completely agree that you shouldn't be expected to sort out extra work or catch kids up.

motownmover · 22/07/2013 21:00

Crash I am allowed to read your posts how I see them. This is a AIBU thread.

We can disagree.

ivykaty44 · 22/07/2013 21:00

I think it would be interesting to see if there was a test case what happened.

I wonder whether it could be taken up as against human rights to fine a family for going to a family wedding abroad or such like. Espcially a situation such as owllady has suggested -though in here case she could de register the children from school and state she was home schooling, that way there would not a a fine as it is not illegal to home school

Someone sooner or later will do so and then the whole system will be in jeopardy

MarmaladeTwatkins · 22/07/2013 21:00

And when I take my big bag of change in, I will take a bag of those shit sweets you get from the airport, for the LEA staff.

Hotbots · 22/07/2013 21:03

The thing is, whilst there is a correlation between attendance and achievement, there is no evidence whatsoever that there is any correlation between families who take a weeks holiday in term time once a year, and achievement.

Unfortunately the government is too stupid to see that, and are once again falling over themselves to drag british education standards back to the top (fools) by leaping on this statistic (instead of listening to plenty of other credible evidence that they and labour choose to ignore).

If anyone did a proper study I am absolutely certain that the correlation with poor achievement would be with so called low attendance due to persistent truancy and not with a family holiday in term time one a year.

motownmover · 22/07/2013 21:06

Hobots

That's it there is no evidence that families who take some holiday in term time impact the achievement of their children or anyone else.

The thing is I can see HT's and LEA's wasting valuable time on someone like Marmalade - just plain stupid.

misterioso · 22/07/2013 21:09

I think if your dc aren't in an important year you should be allowed to take the holiday.
It isn't fair for school to suffer when it is SATS years, also you shouldn't expect to be given work for what they have missed

MarmaladeTwatkins · 22/07/2013 21:10
dippingbackin · 22/07/2013 21:10

Hotbots - you are probably right that one week off in an entire school year is not going to make a massive difference. However if schools allow holidays out of term time it most likely won't be once per year for some children. If that is the case then achievement will definitely suffer.

This will become a massive issue when performance related pay comes in and teachers are possibly going to be judged on the results of their students. If I have a class of 30 GCSE children and some go away in term time, this not only affects their results but through no fault of my own may affect my pay going forward. My job is to maximise the students chances of achieving the best that they can, this is not possible if they are not in school.

TumbleWeeds · 22/07/2013 21:11

this is a PRIMARY school issue though. No one where I am will think about taking a child out of school for a skiing hols in secondary school as this is just NOT allowed.

Which then raise the question: How can people have so many opportunities not to miss with primary age children but with secondary age children?
Why is it essential for a teenager to always be at school but not for a younger child?

Tbh, this will have an impact for me too as taking one week off out of school hols is the only way I can go back to my home country. I couldn't afford it otherwise.
But I always astonished at how most people find it OK to take their dcs out of school for a hols.
A case by case evaluation would obviously be better but perhaps not as lenient as it has been until now?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 22/07/2013 21:11

It will still be cheaper (and more pleasant/less crowded) to swallow the fines than pay over the odds for a holiday at peak time. School can go fucking whistle for all I care.

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