To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

Should it be "antenatal, delivery and maternity wards"?

Otherwise I'm happy.

That's really good. You guys are amazing.

I like it.
I was a bit worried about just focusing on violence or using the term 'violence' as it gives HCPs who are behaving like this something to hide behind, violation gives it much wider scope.
I'd like to add a bit about dignity and respect. I feel that, in my case I'd never be able to prove that anything was done without my consent but a lot of what has upset me most was done without any reference to my humanity. Treating people with contempt creeps into HCPs' practice and its what leads to the things we've read in this thread. If we can focus a bit on respect and dignity it may help to nip these incidents in the bud

I've also been thinking about how we do this and I think we should do it in three waves.

The first would be to empower women to make complaints.
All the structures are already in place, the NMC has a code of conduct and the GMC has published 'Good Medical Practice' (Domains and 4 are of particular interest here). If the recommendations made in these documents are broken you have a case to report to the practitioners regulatory body. All NHS trusts have a complaints department. On its own this will begin to improve matters. None of these bodies are allowed to ignore complaintsthey must look into the allegations and respond within a given time frame.
For me the simple realisation that it wasn't just me was enough to give me the courage to make my complaint but we should look at ways to support women to find their own way to this without putting pressure on them. I think this is where working with others already in the field will be very useful

Secondly we have to find ways to educate HCPs about the consequences of their actions. I feel that if we have a solid body of complaints it will be easier to mobilise the various educational bodies involved in health care.

Thirdly we go for legislation to protect women in labour. I'm only putting this as third because it'll take a lot longer and it isn't just in our hands.
I think we should all be contacting our representatives as soon as we can to get the ball rolling.

Itchy you are dead right... which is why it will take a long time...

I've been thinking about how we give women the power to complain and I'm not really sure but then I thought we should start a thread asking MNers what they think. I think that would make it more powerful because the suggestions would come from the people who would be complaining.

I'm going to message the OP, she got quite badly flamed for asking her question, which I felt came from genuine curiosity rather than malice. I'd like to give her a heads up as to what's going on here as we're keeping this thread alive and will be referencing it in the future as well.

I think the first point has probably got two parts. Firstly to educate women and secondly to empower them - before and after basically.

If we can get solicitors involved in this it would be good, both to help with writing good birth plans (maybe in conjunction with the birth professionals we have on our side and doulas) and with complaints.

When my guests have left I will get on with the website.

I must admit personally I think obstetric violence has more clout than maternity / birth rights and also links better to the legislation in Venezuela we were looking at.

Good work on the text for website.

I'm not sure about the educating women focus. It feels a bit patronising. And again it's saying if they have been violated, its because they weren't properly educated. When usually its just that they were overpowered by people in blue and white coats who just know how to manipulate....

To me the focus should be legislation first. The campaign for there to be a piece of legislation similar to that in Venezuela. Everything else should flow from that..... Also there are already organisations looking at educating women etc.

That lawyer contact sounds brilliant

I know what you mean, but I was thinking more of the women who said they thought they had to lie there and take it, that they don't have rights. Also educating women is going to pass onto their birth partners so we end up with BPs who are going to stand up for them. Another thing that women think is worthless is birth plans and it does all depend on how they are written.

RedToothBrush - looks a good, very solid starting point.

I would expand it proper consent for pregnant women and biggest wrong in the care of pregnant women and women shortly after birth so as to not reduce it to a place. The worst offenses for me happened in an OB/GYN ward (as I was not yet 20 weeks) and in my own home at a home birth. Pregnant women are cared for a wide range of places. Also expand the violation by OBs and Midwives to include other health care professionals.

I agree that having clarity about consent, clear complaint procedures and consequences for their actions, and with the blame and push for change fully on medical professionals who abuse their position.

The birth plan thing is a good point - many books and sites make it seem like a shopping list for a birth that many can't connect to, we all know how things can go, I think it would be better if birth plans were more about a brief way to communicate concerns and needs. With my first, I had the shopping list and it was too long and ignored, and it changed with each until DC4, it was a brief list of medical issues and concerns and my needs and fears with big reminders at the top and bottom that I was very frightened to be there and needed their kindness to get through this and even as a very difficult birth, it made my dealing with them so much better than in any of my other births.

tada!

Basic at the moment, will get better through the week. Please join up, add your story to the guestbook to get it started and share it on Facebook and Twitter, if you're in contact with any useful organisation share it to them and ask if it's OK to put their name on the links page (which I know isn't live yet). RTB is going to admin it with me, we'll also need some Tweeters and Facebookers as I have held off adding those aps. Please join the forum and make suggestions.

Site looks good courgette

Insomnia editor in me wants to add one more thing - it being unlawful isn't really the worst part for most people. I would change that to "This is insensitive, unethical, and immoral. It is also illegal" and make a link to the illegal bit to the law(s) involved and ways to take action.

I've has made version of my recommendations to make it easier to see what I was saying and easier to tinker around with rather than just the list of my academic editor mode thoughts. InsomniaSporkEditor loves playing with text

Maternity Rights!
The Campaign for proper consent during pregnancy, labour, birth, and postnatal care.

About:
Maternity Rights! is a website set up to tackle a lack of respect for proper consent from women either before, during or after they give birth. This is a great wrong that needs to be brought into the open and discussed to make changes for better care.

Whilst we appreciate that pregnancy and giving birth can be sometimes unpredictable, difficult, and traumatic, the experience for many women is being made even worst by the lack of respect and involvement in their own treatment from those supposed to be providing them with care. Even the most difficult birth can be made a lot easier and less distressing with proper communication and engagement in decision between staff and patients.

The website was founded after concerns raised by a sizable number of women on Mumsnet about how they felt violated, abused and mistreated by midwives, obstetricians, and other health care staff involved in their care. Many shared stories with a similar pattern, about how they had been subjected to various procedures without consent and how requests to stop had been actively and willfully ignored.

This is insensitive, unethical, and immoral. It can have long-term effects. (link here on this) It is also illegal. (I would make illegal a link to a page about the law)

This campaigns aims: (make each one a link to a page discussing it?)
To promote to women and health care providers alike what constitutes consent and what violates women's body autonomy.
To help women understand what their rights are, when they may have been broken, what steps can be taken against those who break the law, and to let them know they are not alone or at fault.
To force hospitals and health care professionals to acknowledge that the problem is widespread, institutionalized, and can be dealt with.

It hopes to get government to recognise the needs of women as being unrecognised and not fully protected within existing law by the introduction of a new criminal offence of obstetric violence. (link to page discussing proposed legislation and global comparisons).

We aim to end the thousands of women who are suffering in silence from a preventable trauma.

How's that?

All things to add to the list

Come and join the site, it's feeling kinda lonely over there!

While this is great the focus on lack of consent and violence is going to alienate women who have have shite experiences but who don't identify as victims of lack of consent or violence. I wouldn't feel comfortable describing my own experience like that and I would feel like a fraud joining a group for that. I think we should keep it as broad as we can.
I agree that obstetric violence and lack of consent are the most serious things happening here but they are the far end of a continuum that shouldn't be happening.
For example, Miaow's story above doesn't contain violence or lack of consent but it was still shite and something we shouldn't have to put up with.
I'm a bit concerned that if we concentrate on only those issues it may become that its ok to treat us with cruelty and contempt as long as we've consented to everything and there's no actual violence carried out.

I think decency and manners are a right we should expect from our HCPs, so I don't see that we're excluding it. Please join and suggest changes

I've edited the front page, let me know what you think, especially Itchy.

I tried to get on and it won't load for me...

(using chrome if that helps)

I'm also on Chrome so not sure if it's that. Try refreshing as it was being difficult for me earlier.

I like that

I just feel that to make any difference we have to include to as many people and as many experiences as possible.
Also I work as a nurse and I've worked alongside colleagues who have been contemptuous of patients. In my experience that's how poor treatment of patients starts. A lot of these folk felt they provided good care because they got good clinical outcomes and had little insight into how their attitude affected the patient. I want all HCPs to hear about this campaign and feel that they need to look at improving their own practice rather than to be able to say "Well I've never hurt a patient or done something without consent so I can ignore this movement"

Anyway, rant over , I'm off to sign up to the website.
Shall I start a new thread to advertise it?

Oh yes please! Is that you that's already joined?

great. and my dds will not give birth without me there. never no ever.