To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

Are enough..... I should say

Ps, I'm on pretty good terms with my local mp. I could certainly raise it with him

Red IMO the biggest problem is actually educating women themselves.

About a year ago I started a thread specifically about the importance f being respected in birth, and it not just being about "a healthy baby". Loads of women wrote in to tell me I was princessy or naive, or into whale music. Then MNHQ moved the thread from AIBU to Childbirth, essentially a specialist area which gets much less traffic.

Basically, I think it may be women themselves, including and especially midwives (generally female) who need awareness building.

Also I find this thread bizarrely fascinating even though it makes me remember constantly the one non-consensual gynae I have had. I cannot imagine how triggering this must be for people with birth trauma, and I am in awe of your grace and courage in sharing with and educating others.

I am so damn glad I had a home birth with my only child.
And I would like to say: thank you past posters on MN because it was only after reading other women's stories on here that I realised, whilst still pregnant, that as a rape survivor with PTSD with a specific fear of hospital and internal exams following the rape, that I was allowed to stay at home. Allowed to say no. Allowed to give consent. Allowed to have power, and choices, and protect myself and my body and mind even though I was pregnant and labouring.
I didn't know before MN and I would have been another further- traumatised woman flash backing my baby's birth if I hadn't been guided and informed by your collective wisdom and experience.

So thank you. And to you all, especially those who were hurt and harassed and assaulted and ignored but have told your stories nonetheless.

Revolting I'm not sure I agree that it's about educating women. Women are pretty well educated on the whole. But during the state of birth you enter a primal state where your 'thinking brain' or neocortex switches off. It is this state, combined with the physical changes your body is making that make even the most educated woman vulnerable to any twattish hcps.

Right, must stop checking for a while

I lost track of time and speech.

This seems like a thread to ask a question I have after my 3rd labour.

Can a midwife accurately perform an internal to check progress while a woman is on her hands and knees?

I ask as with DS3 I was on the ward as in inpatient and as with my second baby I went from nothing, no contractions no tightenings to waters breaking and needing to push in about 2 minutes flat, I was on my hands and knees(baring in mind I was an inpatient due to a completely separated pelvis and excruciating pain needing controlled pain relief) this was the only way I could stay conscious and calm at this point.

I buzzed for help and explained my previous birth and that I needed to push as the baby was here.

Cue much eye rolling and her saying she needs to check and if I wasn't prepared to get onto my back then she couldn't help me and she fucking left the cubical!!!

DP finally helped me move onto my back whilst I screamed and she came back and DS was born seconds later as I flipped back over onto my knees.

She claimed afterwards that its impossible to judge progression unless a patient is laying in their back in a standard ankles together knees,apart position.

My theory was, that after already having 2 children I knew DS was here and ready, I needed to be in the labour ward having support to push him out not talked to like a petulant child that was bring disobedient.

On assessing labour without VE

www.studentmidwife.net/fob/assessing-labour-without-ves.21416/

i DO think in part its about educating women. How many women on this thread have referred to what was happening to them as 'trivial'?

How many women on this thread have had questions or assumed them had given consent when that consent was dubious at best.

I definitely think a little guide to consent would be worth while. Either as some sort of leaflet or maybe as a QandA type thing that MN could put on the site. That certainly wouldn't dilute any of the campaigns they are currently doing. If further down the line they wanted to promote it more they would have it ready to push. In fairness to MN they have pinned something about birthrights on the child birth section, but I don't think it goes far enough or explains a great number of things - it does link to places that talk about consent, but again, I'm not sure they cover enough either.

It needs to be easy to read and easy to understand but comprehensive. If women are aware that they have been abused, then perhaps that would help them make formal complaints rather than think they are somehow to blame.

I didn't have anything but respect when I had my two DCs. I was treated with kindness and sympathy, had my wishes listened to, etc.

This should be the NORM, not the exception. And I feel so, so that posters here have had such terrible experiences.

I would be happy to support any campaign so that women can have the kind of treatment that I received as a matter of course. Good treatment should be a basic minimum expectation.

I also think that birth partners should have some preparation before the birth - we did a hypnobirth course (not the main point ) but there was a lot of emphasis on my oh being my advocate during labour - he took great care to learn about labour, potential problems and what happens etc and was there to keep me relaxed and let me get on with birth etc and we talked in depth about what we wanted and what would happen in emergency situations.

Red, I'm home alone tomorrow so thinking of getting a website going, I'll add you as admin too. if it has a guestbook people can add their experience without signing up,they can remain anonymousbut name their hospital. A basic survey to show it's not isolated. i agree it shouldn't be relied on after seeing the affect it's having with Bounty.

I think we should get AIMS, DUK, NB, NCT etc involved too. Maybe we can find solicitors who are willing to help. We can keep it basic whilst we work out what it needs to say.

Sounds like the start of a plan courgette.

courgette, for me, 'naming the hospital' is slightly problematic as the procedure I didn't consent to was performed at home (planned homebirth) by a community midwife from a team based at the hospital (I think!).

Homebirth didn't result in greater respect for my autonomy than the hospital setting, as it turned out.

Go you guys. Am so proud of you getting a website together

About the education thing..., I read up like a ninja. I have a phd. I read spiritual midwifery and all the Ina may books. It didn't help.... I still had two ridiculous sweeps that did nothing except making me very angry

It'll all be voluntary and at the least people can name their area. You'd have still been under a hospital.

RTB, drop me your email and I'll add you as an admin.

Any suggestions what to call the website?

Courgette may I suggest that your aim be to get the leaflet about consent distributed t NCT classes and then maybe as a second goal, at all first midwife appts?

Titles.... Personally I think birth rape and birth assault are great terms, BUT it seems to me that using them depends on who your target audience is and what your aim is. Like,if your aim is to provide a site for traumatised women to express their trauma, those might be great.

But, if you want to do sth along the lines I mentioned (if!) then I think you are looking to catch women who won't yet identify with those terms. They may be people like the OP who really don't have a concept of BT.

In that case, you want to make people who have no idea about this read your stuff, so....

Protecting yourself and your baby: What you need to know about obstetric violence

Consent and your rights during birth: Protecting you and your baby

Or for a rubbishy acronym! - what about.... MOVe - Mums against Obstetric ViolencE?

Hmm not really an acronym, eh....

NOVA - No to Obstetric Violence and Assault

Crap at this...!

courgette, I'd be happy to name the hospital.

However, for me, it would be desirable to have the option to clearly indicate that my experience took place in my own home as part of a planned homebirth. Like many women, I had expected greater autonomy with a homebirth; it might be informative to learn how often this is not borne out in reality.

I like MOVE but it kind of marginalises fathers/men. I'm not going all men's rights, I promise, but fathers don't want to see mothers assaulted either, and they are often going to be the voice advocating for labouring women.

There is a difference between BT (which is technically PTSD) and an assault. I think there definitely needs to be a glossary!

I like the idea of an anacronym! MOVE to a safer birth?

Going back to a previous post, when I was saying about offending people, I want to explain a little. It's not that I think we should offend people, but I think people need to know that it's just as serious. It's like "date rape" people try to play it down, it's not as bad etc, but the women who have been raped by a date (or even a husband) need to know that they can say they've been raped. It's about the woman, not about others who decide to take offence. I hope that makes sense, my brain is being weird.

Glossary is a good idea, as you can introduce the term BT and even Birth Rape into a context where it isn't going to upset people.

If you explain it in a way that isn't emotive and isn't trying to provoke a reaction, I think its fair enough. The point is to be sensitive about the term and to speak about it in a factual way.

If this is going to be taken seriously, keeping away from that type of thing will be helpful.

I've got some time off later this week, so its a good week for me to look at things.