To think that no-one should go to Dubai

[Sallyingforth]

while they treat women like this...

Jailed for being raped.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

Absolutely Arcticspill - places like Saudi are, frankly, much more deserving of some of the hyperbole in this thread. Saudi has no desire to be attractive to inward investors or tourists and vast supplies of natural resources and wealth. Worrying indeed.

I remember white people living in South Africa during Apartheid, said the same kind of thing as you Lurking.

It doesn't wash with me and many other people.

Skyler - you asked how people living in Dubai for selfish reasons could live with "profiting from the misery of others" and I live here so I answered your question.

Saying that, I would be really interested in hearing how you support the oppressed migrant workers of the UAE - do tell! Or perhaps you do just prefer making snide remarks on faceless forums while crowing about how morally reprehensible everyone else is.

Sorry ExcuseTypo's - I don't know which comment you mean?

Well, for some people the chance to make a bit of money trumps everything, I suppose.

I know LurkingBeagle that the reason we put up with it is because we need oil for the Middle East. However that doesn't mean that I have to spend my money in these countries when I have a choice not to do so.

Incidentally I thought that Dubai had comparatively little oil which is why it has set itself up as a tourist playground instead?

In some ways yes it does. Being tax-free is life-changing for me because my own background is poor as I explained up thread. Whilst I had read about poor treatment of workers here it, the moral aspect was not uppermost in my mind when I moved here. Now I am here, I want to, and am able to, help in a practical way.

when in Rome! have friends in Dubai and have visited them. it's an amazing spectacle and defiantly worth seeing.

you do however have to abide by their laws.

the alcohol laws are strict as Is public decency so I didn't French kiss dh in public and quite frankly wouldn't here.

westerners can in general wear what they like, drink in restaurants and in home but not outwardly be drunk, pity not more like it here on most Saturday nights.

me and teen dds felt absolutely safe anywhere at any time.

no country is perfect and if you visit / live there then you need to respect their laws.

plenty of human rights violations in most countries including European ones.

Bridget - of course you don't. So don't! But others on this thread are assuming that those of us who do live here have no concern for migrant workers or domestic workers, and that is simply untrue.

Dubai does have very little oil - tourism and financial and professional services are the mainstays now. The oil is in the other Emirates.

skyler much of the criticism surrounding worsening opression centers on the prosecution of 93 persons who human rights watch describe as "government critics".

The prosecution rested on evidence that those critics were in fact hard line islamisists with links to terrorist organisations and were planning a violent coup.

Human rights watch (rightly) objected to the fact that a number of defendants were held incommunicado, in undisclosed locations and that parts of the pre trial process were held in private, all things that routinely happen in the UK and USA when dealing with those who would seek to violently seize power. Whilst I am not for one moment arguing that two wrongs make a right it is important to understand why the current stance is being taken by human rights watch.

LurkingBeagle I agree with your last comment. I sleep well knowing I support a family in the Philippines, knowing we pay our nanny over 4 times what she could earn back home, that her 3 kids are in the best school they can be, that she has built a house for them, that we insist she flies home once a year despite her not always wanting to. I am happy in the knowledge that I treat everyone I come into contact with here with the upmost respect and help where I can. I am here not earning a huge tax free salary, in fact for most people here the living costs outweighs any tax free benefits, I am here due to the job market in the UK and the opportunity to develop my career in a way which would not have been possible elsewhere....but I don't have to justify this to anyone.

Exactly, Eddiethehorse. Life is rarely black and white and the economic situation in the UK has left some people with fewer choices. It is what it is, and I believe in making the best of things which is why I pay more than my maid asks for (!) and volunteer locally. So many people treat their maid as another member of the family, in exactly the way you have described. I don't know anyone as ruthlessly exploitative as people on this thread seem to think.

Sorry, but all those talking about "Muslim countries" as if they are some kind of homogenous mass aren't really impressing me.

At least Lurking actually knows the place and it's people rather then demonizing them from afar, which I find to be far more sinister.

Also, there are human rights groups active in the UAE and there certainly are plenty of women's rights groups (and yes, there are Emerati people leading these groups, not Westerners). So things are changing slowly for the better.

If we're boycotting over a legal case, is anyone avoiding the US over the Trayvon Martin cade, or is that different?

I think the circumstances of this case are understandably a bit murky though. I listened to an interview with the victim on the radio yesterday. She said the police were nothing but professional in their treatment of her, getting statements and the like. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a case of her word against his. She agreed that she was drunk, she agreed that she let him take her to his room instead of hers, she agreed that she allowed him to persuade her that she would be safer inside his room than walking back to hers because she could be taken advantage of. She said she was so out of it that she blacked out and only when she woke up did she realise what had happened - it wasn't clear whether that was during what he was accused of or after.

I don't agree with their extramarital relations laws but it's important to note that the man accused, who said it was consensual, received 13 months. Not sure why his sentence was three months shorter though. I have been to Dubai - I think it's imperative that expats in any country know the laws of the land they plan to stay in. Getting so inebriated that you pass out is never a good idea even in your own country, let alone one where you are not familiar wth the culture.

It wouldn't stop me from going there and I don't think they are barbaric - crass and nouveau riche with oil money maybe though .

We turned down Dubai.

I just didn't want to risk it. Crazy laws. No thanks.

The laws are different and from a Western perspective some are archaic but the vast, vast majority of people live here with no problems at all - that includes petty crimes to major crime - its safe.
Check out the work that Lola Lopez www.volunteerinuae.com/team/lola-lopez/ is doing here (and many more like her) with a lot of support from shock, horror? Emiratis and Muslims too! Look at the Emirati (ok non elected government) and there are women in it?.how did that happen?! Things are changing here, albeit slowly but there is change.
I think there is a huge degree of ignorance on this thread, I hope those same people that are boycotting the Middle East and specifically Dubai, pay the same level of scrutiny to their everyday lives, from where their food and clothes come from to who manufacturers their goods etc etc

Nope Eddie I am honest enough to admit it was all about risk to myself/family.

I did not wish to submit to the laws of that country, I didn't have to go there. So I didn't.

They can have any laws they want, not my business actually, but I don't have to go live there.

"At least Lurking actually knows the place and it's people rather then demonizing them from afar, which I find to be far more sinister."

Well, Perilsasinger and Shrugged, to name just a couple, actually have lived and worked there too and they describe Dubai in a very different way.

There is a huge degree of ignorance on this thread? Yeah, yeah, look you're happy to live/holiday under a dictatorship. That's fine. A lot of us don't.

I would add that we didn't have a maid but we did employ a lovely Nepalese lady to clean for us, once a week.

I met her when I was sitting in a hospital waiting room waiting for some innoculation ( I think).

The stories she told us that horrified us were when these women had to work for the locals there. The woman of the female would often abuse mentally and physically the poor maid/worker. The workers hated, without exception, to have to work for an Arab family.

Our cleaner at work also spoke of the same horrors which befell some of her friends working in Arab families.

I know this is a generalisation and of course there must be some decent ones - but I only heard the horror stories. Apparently the Arab women also had really bad personal hygiene (I know, that's another story, but I was told that again and again).

We were lucky to be able to find one of our neighbours to employ our cleaner when we left - the cleaners always wanted to be employed by Westerners.

I have heard the same as Perils - if you read the UAE press most of the horror stories seem to happen in Arab families.

I guess everyone forms views based on their own experiences but I have been exceptionally well-treated here, without exception, including by the police after a car accident even though at the time I spoke no Arabic. I feel 100% safe coming home alone at night and have friends of many religions and nationalities (another huge bonus - to me at least - of living here). Then again I have never got so drunk I passed out or gone anywhere without my alcohol licence!

I was thinking about this thread on the way into work this morning - I was delayed because of building work being carried out to Dubai mall. According to their advertising, once the work is completed they are expecting 100 million visitors every year. That's just to the mall, not the city as a whole. I imagine only a tiny proportion of that will be visitors from the UK, so the authorities are probably not too worried about being boycotted by a few huffy MN'ers.

This - nice asuumption. I've never actually been to Dubai.

However I did indeed used to holiday in a dictatorship - Syria, as I have family there. Obviously no holidaying there, over 100,000 people are dead - while the world does precisely nothing, so you can possibly see why I'm a bit touchy about the stereotyping of Arabs and Muslims, because it has very hideous consequences (and is where the comparisons to SA fall flat).

You're quoting Peril as some kind of knowledgeable source when she's happy to repeat racist filth like "I heard the Arab women have terrible personal hygiene"

Sorry, the second part of that para was in response to Eddie t he horse. - re. Ignorance.

There are lots of different views and yeah I agree with lurking millions of people love to visit Dubai- the dictators aren't worried about huffy mumsnetters not going - so why we're being persuaded that we are wrong or missing out I don't know.

I don't think anyone is trying to persuade you that you're wrong or missing out. More of an explanation as to why we DO choose to go in response to the OP and subsequent posts saying that we shouldn't.

Ignorance: we are all here for the money, all migriant workers are oppressed, people live in compounds or stay in hotels they cant leave, no heritage, culture etc etc etc
The great news is that she has been pardoned:
www.facebook.com/LolaLopezDubai?fref=ts

DeepPurple Sun 21-Jul-13 15:43:52

"Maids are "owned" by families to the extent that they are not in possession of their own passport. The reason for this is that they are being sponsored by the family and if the maid was to do anything wrong the sponsor can be fined, imprisoned or thrown out of the country. Most maids make around £300-£600 per month. They also have their visa costs paid, a month holiday each year which most use in one block to visit their home country. Flights to and from their home country are paid by the sponsor and they are also provided accommodation and a food allowance. £300 a month doesn't sound that bad when you consider the overall package really. What do we pay au pairs in the uk? Considering a three bed house costs around £30k a year to rent, a private room in a house is good value. Many maids own several properties in their own countries as working in Dubai gives them enough money to do that."

Can't you see that it is your first sentence here that makes the whole difference?

If you are an au pair in the UK and discover that your employer expects you to go to bed with him as part of your au pair duties, you can get out and go home. If you are a maid in Dubai, he has your passport.

Ditto if you find he expects you to do twice as many hours as your contract or beats you if the coffee isn't just right.

Most of my friends were au-pairs when I was young. If a family seemed at all dodgy, they got out.