To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Hilda, just to reply to you, I don't know some of the women intimately enough to know if they were "lax" with contraception. A couple were single mothers who knew enough to know they weren't going to do it again. One was raped, I paid for her flight to England. I agree though that an exception of abortion in the case of rape could not possibly work - would the woman have to prove it was rape? This she could not have done, and particularly in the time scales involved. One certainly wasn't "lax" in the belief that abortion was an option, as until she got pregnant she was anti-abortion and didn't believe it was an option at all (basically the opposite of your scenario of someone getting pregnant and being unable to go through with an abortion). She was tormented by years with thinking she had done something terrible yet knowing if she had the choice again she would do it again, she was glad she didn't have the baby. Gradually, through living life, seeing other loved ones have an abortion and hating the idea of them being judged and seeing what the reality of life with children was like, she came to peace with her abortion. That person was me. I am so glad I had an abortion when I was young and foolish, I would have been a terrible mother then.
It is very socially unacceptable in Ireland to admit to an abortion for contraceptive failure, and so I would imagine you know a lot more women who have had one but it is secret.

Do you know what this legislation says to me.... that I cannot be trusted to think for myself or make decisions for myself because I have a uterus. The pill has only been available here since 1980 (and even then it was subject to circumstances) and condoms sold to over 18s in 1986 iirc. Marital rape has only become illegal in the last 20 years. I think the ownership of women's bodies has gone on long enough.

Ireland respects single mothers?!

Aha. Ahahahahaha. Yeah, right.

Go on over to boards.ie and read a few threads about mickey money, family courts (sure wimmin have too many rights), lone parents, social welfare. There is a thread about pregnant teenagers doing FETAC courses at the top of After Hours right now. Go have a read and see what they think of mothers.

Or if you'd prefer The Journal, check out the charming comments about the scroungers who didn't get their welfare payments yesterday. Lots of 'hilarious' jokes about mickey money and council flats there.

Look, you are members of freaking Mumsnet. The women here are mostly in the baby-killing UK, yet to my eyes they seem to be exactly the same as in Ireland. Neither country values mothers and children as much as they should but neither is a child-hating dystopia either.

The abortion rate in Ireland is approximately one in ten pregnancies (or possibly higher). The abortion rate in the UK is two in ten. Please explain to me how this difference denotes a massive wave of baby hating? Because to me it is all explained by the way we restrict pregnant children, domestic violence victims, and the poor. All of whom, incidentally, are cared for at least as well if not better in the UK than in Ireland. But at least we stopped putting them in Magdalene laundries in 1996!

Do you live in the 1950's, Bratingham? I've never heard the like!

Ireland is little different in attitude to the UK. Single parenthood is entirely normal, divorce (or actually separation, even very long term) is all around us. Lots of parents are unmarried, even the middle class ones. nobody wears sack cloth and ashes.
Of course there are plenty of tossers that have a problem with all of the above, just the same way there are in the UK. But there is no talk of cutting off benefits after 2 children here, it wouldn't even get a listen. And it is true that benefits are easier to get and more generous for single parents and for unemployed parents in couples.

We have good, we have bad, just like you. Stop reducing us to stereotypes, it doesn't help the actual important issues at hand.

And honestly the Irish maternity system just doesn't compare to the NHS.

We lie about our maternal death rate ( www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=22248 ). Most regional hospitals offer ONE scan - the 18 weeks one, at 22 or 23 weeks, because they are so underfunded. Some women don't even get that. No dating scan. Midwife-led care is only available to a tiny minority. Homebirths to an even smaller number. I am with the NHS this pregnancy, the difference is night and day. Two scans, when they are supposed to be given. Free dental care. A TON of antenatal testing that I was never offered in Ireland (including, yes, a test for Downs and other fetal abnormalities). My hyperemesis was caught and diagnosed and medicated immediately - midwives couldn't believe the "care" I'd gotten for it in Ireland (told to suck it up it was only morning sickness and scolded for the weight I lost).

Ireland is not terrible, I'm not saying that, but lets not kid ourselves regarding the quality of care. It is old fashioned and underfunded. Even the dedicated maternity hospitals are ancient and unfit for purpose. I haven't even touched on the scandals - symphysiotomies, Michael Neary, the OLOL miscarriage misdiagnosis scandal - that was LAST YEAR!

And when the baby arrives we don't even have paternity leave.

Again, Ireland isn't terrible. But it is emphatically NOT looking after pregnant women as well as it should and the UK's maternity system is as good and sometimes better than it in pretty much every way.

Abortion availability does NOT mean maternity services suffer.

In fairness, I was at one of the main maternity hospitals rather than a regional one. Would have had 3 scans if no issues had arisen (early one offered because of previous miscarriage) as it was an issue did arise, was under 2 consultant's care and ended up having more scans than a frequent flyers bag. Certainly though the wards were v overcrowded!

That article is interesting HoldMeCloser, but even the wider criteria sets the Irish maternal mortality rate at 8.6 per 100,000, whereas the same criteria in the UK gives a maternal mortality rate of 11.39 per 100,000.

I disagree that the dedicated maternity hospitals are 'ancient and unfit for purpose' - the hospital my sister and close friends gave birth in was gleaming and new.

The regional hospitals might be a different matter, of course. Hope the rest of your pregnancy goes well.

But have you seen the reports of needless deaths and the horrors in nhs wards? Like they have any room to brag! Sure, some aspects are better, but its as hit and miss as here, and its also chronically understaffed and underfunded.

I've had 5 pregnancies at different Irish hospitals. I've been consultant led and in an MLU. Sure, the standard is often 1 scan (most people don't need a dating scan, since they know their dates, why waste the time and money?) but not once have I only ever had the one scan, I think I had 10 on one pregnancy due to need. If you need more, you get more, if you don't, you get the minimum. nothing wrong with that. I've seen some of the best and the worst there is to be had here. I've been left in a corridor in labour because there was no room, and I've had my own private suite including pool and much more, all in the public system.

You can't take your experience and say the UK is better. I can't take mine and say Ireland is. In reality they both have major problems but do a fantastic job for a huge number of women, and fuck up for another number.

But none of that is the point at hand here. Motherhood and pregnancy care should be divorced from abortion, not least because not every pregnant woman wants to be a mother. THATS the point here.

Agreed Koba, I'm just pointing out that the UK having abortion doesn't affect their maternity provision, and Ireland banning it doesn't mean they're taking proper care of women.

Unfortunately I also can't relate at all to the glowing account above of Ireland's special needs provision. My family members have had a constant battle for SNAs, assessments, and treatment. A good friend is an OT - the children who see her have been waiting four years. I don't believe Ireland takes any better care of special needs children than the UK does. Which is to say, neither do enough.

I was in Galway twice and Castlebar once. I had between 3 and 6 scans in each pregnancy. I was offered tests to test for foetal abnormalities and afaik they're standard for mothers over 35. I'm not saying maternity care is astounding over here, it could certainly be better, but some of what you've said holdme isn't my experience at all, and I have never heard of a mother having no scans at all, not since the 80's anyway. I strenuously disagree that maternity care here is 'awful' as the previous poster said. As with everything, what you get is very dependent on the hospital you attend... I've heard terrible things about certain hospitals, amazing things about others. But the basic care that every woman is entitled to for free is certainly better than most other countries.

As for boards.ie being a representative sample of the Irish population.... erm no . It's a site which is dominated by a select few extremist posters who all seem to have moderator privileges. The rest of the site is divided into arse lickers and non arse lickers and the non arse lickers generally get hounded off pretty quickly. The entire site is like AIBU on steroids.... would England like to be judged on the basis of AIBU alone? I doubt it as it doesn't exactly paint English opinions in a great light most days.

there's no need for lots of scans in a normally developing pregnancy. With dd2 where we had bad odds for downs, ruled out by cvs, they still gave us additional scans at 22 and 26 weeks just to be sure that everything was on track. Personally I'd ratherthat the resources are put where they are needed. I'm not saying its perfect either, but we were well treated both pregnancies. Never saw a doc with baby no. 1, only for cvs stuff with no. 2. Midwife led care with no.2, visits at home for 12 days...absolutely brilliant, ring them day or night.

Afaik it is only formalising something that was already in place. Abortuon has always been allowed if the woman's life is at risk (including suicide) but doctors were always a bit hazy about where the line was drawn. Now it's been formalised.

I agree with you on special needs provision, HoldMeCloser. And the cuts mean that provision for children with special needs in school is getting worse and worse.

More broadly, the 'lack of stigma' attached to those on benefits isn't so much the result of a wonderful, selfless, 'family first' attitude; rather it is the product of a very complicated relationship between the individual, state, and society.

"Ireland's maternal mortality is low, and maternal care is rated better than the UK in World Health Organisation's report" (Times, July 13th).

But puzzled why this has become the discussion, when related to original subject of women who want their pregnancy terminated.

Yes, skyler and holdmecloser, can't say I see this picture either. I have a friend with a 16 yo dd with SN and every step has been a monumental battle, even for a highly articulate woman who knows how to get things done and make people listen. Attitudes do seem quite positive, and some areas of schooling would be very inclusive (my dds school,, for example). The resources aren't there, and aren't prioritized.

thats not true bumbley, it was never really in place. Which is why women dying of cancer that was being speeded up by pregnancy were denied abortion, and why Savita died.

For me, ARealDame, it's just that Ireland has decent but not stellar care for pregnant women, decent but not stellar care for special needs children, decent but not stellar attitudes to single/teenage parents.

In this, it's pretty much the same as not just the UK but the rest of Western Europe. Behind in some respects but not third world. I've lived in France and the UK and Ireland doesn't have drastically different attitudes to either. There is far more the same than different.

With one huge exception - abortion. There we part ways with the rest of the developed world, from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the rest of Europe. Our laws are on a par with developing countries. We are more restrictive than much of Africa, Asia, Latin America. Why?? It's not just Catholicism, that hasn't stopped Spain and Italy.

Other commenters have suggested that our opposition to abortion is keeping something special and particular in our culture. But I don't see any evidence of that in reality. We are the same, or sometimes a bit behind, most other Western countries in all of the measurements mentioned thus far.

Here's a map of abortion laws throughout the world.

i.imgur.com/c7myiJ0.png

We are in some shameful company.

I just don't see how having the same laws as the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc etc etc will harm us. At the moment we're on a par with Haiti.

Oops, I'll make it clickable!

i.imgur.com/c7myiJ0.png

I'll never get the hang of links

Kobaysha, yes, it was allowed in order to save the life of the mother. There was a case several years back that then expanded it to include risk of suicide. It is just being made more formal now. Savita's life was not at risk when she was requesting the abortion which was why it was not allowed.It is tragic that she contracted septiceamia after she miscarried.

Tell that to women who had to go to the UK for abortions while terminally ill.
Her life WAS at risk when she asked for a termination of an already non-viable pregnancy. The septicemia set in BEFORE the miscarriage was complete, that is why she died.

Well that's why it's being formalised Kobayashi - so that doctors are in no doubt about whether or not they can refer for an abortion.

Re Savita, There were failings in her care that led to her condition not being picked up quickly enough to allow for proper treatment.

how can something which was not available be formalised? You've been reading propaganda......

Some good posts from hilda earlier on the thread.

Just saw this. Seems like a complicated case, but a useful reminder of how the nonsense around exporting Ireland's abortion issue causes great difficulty and suffering.

Bumbleymummy - do you have any evidence which demonstrate that abortions in Ireland have been readily accessed by suicidal women (instead of simply pointing to the X Case judgement)?