To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

The vaginal discharge occurred on the Weds, by which time it was already too late according the expert testimony.

Mary, abortion isn't supposed to be on demand in the UK. They are supposed to show/prove that their physical/ mental health would be at risk. It doesn't seem to be that way as Koba has pointed out (although others have insisted that it is on other threads) but that is what is written in the legislation.

Tbh it seems more like you have an issue with Irish doctors - thinking that they are going to be hard to convince.

You have already said that you think medical negligence killed her - if that was the case then why do you think an earlier abortion would have saved her?

Which expert? Dr Astbury said that the foul selling discharge was significant and had she known about it she would have terminated sooner. She had not read the notes herself ( the discharge had been noted at 6.30 am and this was a couple of hours later - she had not been checked every 4 hours during the night as was required by hospital policy. Had she been, they could have picked up on her elevated temperature, increased heartbeat and the discharge sooner.

Dr Peter Boylan, former master of Holles Street.

I believe he said that if she had been given a termination one or two days after she was admitted, she would ?on the balance of probabilities?, still be alive. Her doctor, Dr Katherine Astbury told the inquest there were a number of systems failures at the hospital in her treatment. Eg the lack of monitoring mentioned above. The infection in your uterus should have been detected sooner than it was.

Her* uterus.

But its not 37 week foetus's that get terminated, at all, its overwhemingly those less than 12 weeks. So again, you're talking utter rubbish. That, plus I'm pretty sure you've been lying a fair bit.

Yes, but by the time those systems failures took place, the sepsis had already taken hold. Boylan testified that it was his view that Savita would be alive today if a termination had been carried out earlier, but that this was not a practical proposition because of the law, which allows for terminations if the life of the mother is at risk, but not f her health is at risk. That was his expert opinion after having been the most senior obstetrician in the country.

More accusations Koba? Lovely.

You said earlier on the thread that you agree with the ifea of abortiom being available on demand until term. You have said that a foetus should not have rights until it is born. You have said that it isn't a 'life' until it has been born. You then try to use an example of an embryo in a Petri dish to 'prove' that there is a difference between an embryo (not a foetus) and an newborn baby. If you want to put your money where your mouth is and show that you genuinely think that a foetus is not really a life until it is born and therefore should not have any rights then repeat your hypothetical experiment with a 37 week old foetus and tell me that you still see a difference between it and the newborn. There's your experiment.

She wasn't diagnosed with sepsis until later on the Wednesday. If she had been monitored over night it could have been picked up sooner. Her doctor highlighted that there were failings. Hospital policy required that she be be checked every 4 hours. She was not.

I also said my view was extreme, and personal, and not actually relevant to the issue at hand. You're just using it to derail sensible argument.

And in answer to your ridiculous, prideful, rewording of my point, there is no question. Of course I pick the real life baby every time. Because a foetus is not a person, and is not as important. no matter at what stage that foetus is, be it 5 mins or 40 weeks.

Later on the Wednesday morning. The discharge had been noted first thing in the morning.

So you don't accept the opinion of Boylan?

I thought you weren't a doctor

Bumbley, you've already told us that you're not a doctor, don't understand the laws, and have no knowledge of any of the major players in this debate. Give up misquoting people who know better than you, will you? It's annoying, and more than a little pathetic.

There is no way you could even tell the difference between a 37 week old foetus and a newborn so how would you know which one to pick?

Where have I misquoted someone?

You're getting a bit touchy there Koba. I wonder why...

Do you accept the expert opinion of Boylan?

Im not saying that, im just pointing out that her own doctor ( the one that was actually with her) said there were failings. Was the expert asked whether he thought she would have survived on the balance of probabilities if the septis had been diagnosed earlier and appropriately treated?

Because one, dearest bumbley, would be inside another person and one wouldn't be

I know you lack medical training, but you realise that foetus only means when its outside, and not when its outside and independent, which is when it is a BABY?

SHEESH!

PS, It's because you're really bloody annoying, thats why.

*only means when its inside. Damn ipad.

Sepsis*

I thought you were holding the embryo in a Petri dish in the original version - you didn't mention anything about it being inside the woman then. why are you changing it? oh, i know - because you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference so your little experiment didn't work.

Well that explains why you had to use an embryo in the first experiment - couldn't have anything resembling a baby now could we.... Maybe you should just admit that it was a crap experiment and move on? :)