To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

YD were brought up earlier. And SPUC.

Where have I said it would have saved her life? I think having proper medical care and attention could have saved her life, regardless of whether she was allowed an abortion or not and even with the abortion she may still have died due to medical negligence.

Yes, I am aware of what the new law is.

Just because it wouldn't have helped Savita (and you've already said yourself that it was medical negligence that killed her so an abortion may not have saved her anyway) doesn't mean that it won't make a difference to other women.

If she's genuinely suicidal then it shouldn't be an issue.

and the likes of you will determine that, bumbley?

How do they prove that their mental health is at risk in the UK?

No, Koba, I'm not a doctor.

TF for small mercies.

I'm not being facetious at all. One of the grounds for abortion in the UK is that the mental health of the mother is more at risk if she continues the pregnancy. How do you think they go about proving that? Or are you suggesting that doctors just provide abortion on demand up to 24 weeks in the UK?

In effect it is abortion on demand, in the UK . it's not like anyone really gets turned down when they ask, luckily.

I've just seen something apposite on another site, for those who keep asserting how much of a person a foetus is:

"Here?s a test:
I?m holding a baby in one hand and a petri dish holding an embryo in the other.
I?m going to drop one. You chose which.
If you really truly believe an embryo is the same thing as a baby, it should be impossible for you to decide. You should have to flip a coin, that?s how impossible the decision should be.
Shot in the dark, you saved the baby.
Because you?re aware there?s a difference.
Now admit it."

There is a spectrum. You know it as much as I do.

Medical negligence didn't kill Savita.

Peter Boylan, former Master of Holles St, testified at the inquest that the only indication she had an infection was a slightly elevated white cell count.

That should have been more closely monitored but it is NOT in any way an indication her life was in danger and under Irish law she can only have an abortion if her life is in danger.

Both Boylan and the UK expert who chaired theHSE inquiry agree she should have been given an abortion on Monday when she asked for it but only because she wanted it and her health was in danger. There were no indications her life was in danger and under our laws that means no abortion unless you wait to get more and more sick.

As for the pro-choice lobby taking advantage - her parents, brothers, friends and husband all support the attention this has gotten. Her parents would like a new law named after her. If it weren't for the pro-choice lobby, nobody would have heard of her - and if you doubt that, think of how NOBODY has heard about the woman in Galway who had the exact same thing happen to her, except she was lucky enough to survive sepsis. She settled out of court with the HSE a few months ago. You want results or change in this country - you need publicity.

"Laws not doctors to blame for Savita"

www.irishtimes.com/news/health/laws-not-doctors-to-blame-for-savita-halappanavar-death-says-expert-witness-1.1363741

Boylan pwns Breda O'Brien of the Iona Institute (do you know who they are bumbley? No?). The Iona and other pro-life organisations are DESPERATE to promote the idea that she died because of medical negligence. That would mean that the laws they created aren't to blame. But it's nonsense. She died because her doctors had to watch her get sicker before they could help her.

www.broadsheet.ie/2013/04/21/dr-peter-boylan-and-breda-obrien-the-transcript/

MaryZ, I am we'll aware of the difference thanks. You're making assimptions again. I am asking you how they are supposed to show that their mental health is at risk in the UK. You think that it would be difficult to show that you are at risk of committing suicide to fulfill the criteria in Ireland. Showing that your physical health is at risk in the UK is fairly straightforward. Showing that your mental health is at risk would be more challenging yet it still doesn't prevent people from having abortions on those grounds in the UK.

Yes, koba, I agree that it is pretty much on demand (although many would disagree with you on that if other threads are anything to go by). It's probably one of the reasons why they are not using the same legislation in Ireland because they don't want that to be the situation there.

You know that an embryo is not the same as a foetus don't you? It's not always the case that you're aborting an embryo - quite unlikely in fact given time constraints etc. In any case, try that test holding a 37 week old foetus. Do you still think there's a difference? Be honest.

HoldMe, when I read the report there was mention of the smell coming from her vagina that had not been reported and the doctor had not examine her. Will check when I get home but that doctor apparently said that the smell was important and would have indicated a more serious infection.

Actually Mary, you're ignoring mine. How do they show/prove their mental health is at risk in the UK? It's certainly more difficult than showing physical health risk but it's obviously still possible because people are still getting abortions on those grounds.

Also, you seem to be going all over the place on Savita. You've already said it was medical negligence and now your saying it was the law preventing her having the abortion earlier.