To get really quite cross about gender separation starting from newborn?

[ComtessedeFrouFrou]

In M & S today and thought I'd look at their newborn basics for DC1, due in early October. We're not planning to buy masses for DC1 as my sister warned me that we're likely to get given lots, but obviously I don't want to be out shopping straight from the labour ward.

Clothes for 0-2 years, already separated into boys and girls. There are a few bits in white and almost nothing else that could properly be described as being gender neutral. We don't know the sex of the baby but even once he or she is here I am determined that whatever sex the baby turns out to be, they will not spend their lives dressed exclusively in blue or pink (delete as appropriate).

Why is it so hard to find stuff that is neutral? I tend to buy more neutral things for friends with children, even if they are obviously for a boy/girl. For my DC1, I have basically had to tend towards the more boyish end of the spectrum in order to avoid being drowned in sugary pink. I wear blue about 4 days out of 7, so why do little girls have to spend their lives in pink?

Ironically, given everything I have heard about how shit they are in all other respects, Mothercare seems to be one of the few places you can get genuinely gender neutral clothes for very small babies.

www.greenbabies.com

Obviously just as with the gender stereotyped clothes adults don't have to go along with that, and lots don't, but it's still there as a convenient (for the retailer) pressure that will affect what a lot of people do.

Being old, I long for the days when babies were dressed in white! I hate primary colours on tiny babies, and it's really hard to even find natural/cream coloured clothing - unless you shop at White Company and other expensive stores.
It really is difficult to buy clothes in preparation when you don't know the sex.
(Oh, and I loathe the pinkification of toys too - totally unnecessary)

H&M newborn stuff is almost all gender neutral, and cute as the dickens. I warn you though, my DD, who owned nothing pink and wore basically boys clothes or funky little Scandinavian outfits suddenly developed a massive pink fetish and now refuses to wear anything else at nearly four. I nearly puked when she announced that she was a pretty little princess. I'm just rolling with it now, and hoping its a phase.

If you've got a large Morrisons near you, they have started to do great baby clothes in lovely bright colours like lime green, bright turquoise, orange etc.

Oh I get bored of looking in the girls section at some stores for my 16 month old girl.

Last time I was looking and honestly 90% of the girls stuff was all pink and the other 10% had some pink on them.

I went to the boys section and found a lovely blue and red top and shorts set. She looks great in them.

Boys section always gets scanned now.

YABU. Shops sell what sells. If people find out it's a girl, they'll buy dresses. If your DC is a boy then they'll buy trousers or dungarees. Your opinion isn't the mass opinion.

Same with toys. Tried to get DS into a range of toys and to be fair, his (blue) dolls pram that he pushes his teddies in is his favourite thing. As he's turning into a toddler he is now obsessed with diggers and tractors and dinosaurs. It's not been forced on him, i've given him a range of toys. That is just what he likes. This is reflected in the clothes I buy him. He doesn't want gender neutral t-shirts, he wants a massive bloody JCB digger and was squealing in delight at new shorts with a train on them.

Have you honestly actually looked for gender neutral stuff. Most of the shops suggested here are where I head for baby clothes anyway (H&M, most supermarkets etc). I find it's the baby stuff all together with sleepsuits etc, then the older kids stuff that's more specifIc. Seems a bit like you looked in one shop and have made a huge generalisation about kids clothes from probably a small selection, then posted on here in an effort to get everyone agreeing and riled up because you know the general mumsnet opinion on boys/girls toys. YAWN. You need to stop being so pfb.

I'm lucky - I know how to sew, and enjoy it. I spent my entire pregnancy making quilts, sheets, clothes and accessories in lavender, blue and green. I like those colours and they are soothing. I also bought bundles of clothing from Ebay - some for girls and some for boys. When my son arrived, he had cream, yellow, pink and blue towels, sleepsuits and clothes. He was treated totally different when in a pink sleepsuit than when in a blue one.... which though it didn't surprise me, saddened me a bit.

He looks great in pink. And his favourite colour is purple. Therefore I buy a lot of "girl" clothing and "girl" shoes because for some reason purple is a "girl" colour. He doesn't know this yet, and if anyone tells him, I shall point out what a stupid idea one half of humanity laying claim to a colour is.

Moustachio, buy why would a toddler have an innate preference for a tshirt with a JCB digger on them? I doubt either of my kids were even aware of the existence of diggers. Okay, some people possibly live near building sites, but the vast majority of children can't be thinking that diggers are really exciting and what they want to go about wearing.

I don't recall either of my two as preschoolers even having any kind of preference as to clothing at all.

I had no difficulty buying plain white or cream newborn babygros in packs of 5 for DS and DD (I did know their genders, but didn't care for the blue/pink divide either).

John Lewis does multipacks of white/cream ones, as does Mothercare and probably plenty of other places.

I don't think you should get too judgey about other people who do like blue or pink though. Whatever. Live and let live.

There's pink stinks www.pinkstinks.co.uk/ as well as let toys be toys.

I work in a "male" job, and I think there's an awful lot of marketing at children, clothing and toys, which means it's getting worse, rather than better, as far as the gender divide goes, and if children are getting messages from the very start that some things are only for boys and some things are only for girls, we're really limiting their choices as they grow, and that's not good for anyone.

freyasnow I just said I buy him a range of toys (including prams, dolls aswell as cars). He picks the cars out every time. I don't live particularly near a building site but there is machinery everywhere. D's chased the bin men down the road yesterday. They hooted at him and everything!

He is particularly bothered about his clothes for a child of his age though having said that. He picks what he wants to wear and then stands there admiring himself in the mirror. He would rather pick out a tshirt with the gruffalo or a car on then something plain.

Children go through schemas. Boys are slightly more likely to be working through a movement or trajectory schema in the first few years of life, hence them being prone to slightly liking vehicles more than girls, although plenty of boys don't like them and plenty of girls do. Trouble is, parents take this as 'proof' that the stereotypes about what boys like are correct for their son and enforce them even more, both consciously and unconsciously. Liking vehicles has nothing specific to do with being male, it is purely a schema.

Similarly, slightly more girls than boys follow an envelopmemt schema, which can involve tucking dolls and toys into bed, dressing them, being interested in clothes and fabric, etc. Again, parents see this as proof of gender stereotypes being innate, whereas schemas are totally non-gendered, and it is only our skewed cultural perceptions that make us see them how we do.

Also, once kids get to about 4, they start wanting to apply gender rules to themselves in order to work on their sense of identity. They use what is available to them, ie stereotypes, and apply them pretty crudely, being children. Thus girls will go through an obsessive pink fairy phase, for example. Parents think this is proof of gender stereotyping having some basis in truth, goes with it, and so the stereotyping deepens yet again. However, if this was true, then the same stereotypes would be globally universal, ie every culture would have blue for a boy, pink for a girl, or whatever, and children of every nationality would apply gender rules to themselves in pretty much identical ways. Except they don't - they apply them in ways totally specific to what their culture says is male or female. In other words, proving - as if it needs proving to anyone capable of only very basic social and interpersonal perception - that gender is a cultural construct, not truth, not innate, not given.

Are those schema gender driven or socially driven though, bearing in mind adults treat infants they think are male differently from how they treat infants they think are female?

I found it very easy to buy neutral clothes. Bold colours, lots of stripes, but no pastel blue or pink, and certainly little white.
I think you're just shopping in the wrong place.

It annoys me too.

Nutmeg at Morrison's is good for brights for babies, as is H&M. You just have to know where to look.

"Have you honestly actually looked for gender neutral stuff. Most of the shops suggested here are where I head for baby clothes anyway (H&M, most supermarkets etc). I find it's the baby stuff all together with sleepsuits etc, then the older kids stuff that's more specifIc. Seems a bit like you looked in one shop and have made a huge generalisation about kids clothes from probably a small selection, then posted on here in an effort to get everyone agreeing and riled up because you know the general mumsnet opinion on boys/girls toys. YAWN. You need to stop being so pfb."

Mustachio did you mean to be so rude? If you don't like it, don't bloody post.

Just so you don't think I'm being too PFB (what on earth has that got to do with it? I'm not looking for diamond encrusted booties ) here is a list of shops I have looked in that happen to be near me. I apologise in advance that I don't live in a big city with infinite choice:

Sainsburys
Mothercare
John Lewis
Tesco
JoJo Maman Bebe
Marks and Spencer
Mamas and Papas
Babies R Us
Debenhams

Is that sufficient research for you? FWIW (although it sounds like you've already made your mind up) I didn't post on here to get everyone riled up. If I'd wanted to do that, I'd have posted about parent and child spaces or Liz Jones.

It's simply the case that, on the occasions I have looked online and in the shops near me, there is very little that isn't clearly intended for one sex or another and since we don't know what we're having, I want to hedge my bets. That is particularly true if you don't want to be spending £20 a sleepsuit

If you're happy with secondhand, what about eBay? Lots of brightly coloured things and if you hunt around you can get bargains (if you go straight for Polarn O Pyret you won't get bargains on the other hand, because that's what everyone else is doing too)...

Green Baby was indeed brilliant. Very sadly, it is no more.

YANBU. My DS (2.8) often requests pink clothes, and has several tshirts and shorts and a tutu to choose from if that's what he feels like.

My friend's daughter of the same age has fantastic monster socks that we're frequently invited to admire :o. Apparently the shop assistant tried to persuade her to get "girls' socks". It's insidious.

I think the most jaw-dropping example if this I've come across is a woman at playgroup who said to her daughter, "come on X, let's practice writing your name ( at that). We'll use the pink crayon, because you're a GIRL."

I may have snorted.

Go to h&m!!

YANBU.

You have to make a conscious, concerted effort to buy non-pink clothes for girls, and even then, their wardrobe is still bound to be inundated with pink.

I don't mind pink. I very rarely buy it myself, but some shades I like. Hardly any women's clothing is pink, but girls' clothes are overwhelmingly pink.

The thing is, the clothes other people buy as presents (which are naturally gratefully received) are often as not pink, and it's a waste not to wear them simply because of my anti-pink principles. I don't take myself that seriously. So pinks stuff slips in this way. In fact, to the casual observer, DD probably often looks like one of those girls whose mother goes out of her way to dress her in pink! Purely because I can't seem to avoid it.

I've also noticed that pink clothing slips in in all sorts of other ways. You go to buy some pyjamas, for instance, and there's a range of colours, although probably 80% of them are some shade of pink or pink-themed. You look for your DD's size, and chances are the only ones left are the pink ones. So because you're in a hurry, you just buy them.

We bought rain jackets for the DC recently - a really good, outdoorsy, hard-wearing brand that was on sale. The only colour that was in DD's size was ... bright pink.

You go to buy accessories like socks and tights and you buy a few, but again, at least 80% of them are pink.

Underwear, scarves, hats, swimming togs, other bits and bobs. At least 80% of them are pink. You have to hunt the non-pink stuff out because everyone else presumably wants the non-pink stuff too, and so the pink stuff is all that's left!

Chances are, by the time I've got DD, who's 2, dressed, she will be wearing at least one pink thing.

It is tiresome. I am over pink - it is ubiquitous if you're the mother of a small daughter. It has become over-familiar, boring, dull and tired now. But I do feel like it is a losing battle.

Bright pink is not flattering imo. Good for making your DCs stand out in a crowd but otherwise softer colours are better. No wonder other countries are not so obsessed with it, soft baby blue is not too good either as it can be a bit of a cold colour, though shades vary.

I've got two team yellow DSs. What I have bought for DS2 myself you could count on one hand. He has everything he needs, so other than a few emergency NB items (born marginally smaller than DS1 who was straight into 0-3) anything I buy is pretty much down to me being tempted into wanting something. I like baby blue, but he's well stocked on that. Unfortunately bold and primary neutrals wash out my fair baldy babies and softer shades of yellows, greens, lilacs, turquoise are thin on the ground. I tend to shop at most of the places mentionned- DS1 had some lovely "girls" slim fit cords in purple. I only realised they were "girls" at home based on some pink interior labelling. I wanted neutral things after birth because I planned on more children and didn't want to ditch/ flog off all of DS1s clothes if he had a DSis.

He is a cliche boy, but that's of his own choice which is no problem for me. With things like toys, in addition to trains, cars etc, he has things like a kitchen, doll, shopping trolley etc which he also plays with. His interest in transport is reflected in his clothes- I happen to like applique pictures and it's easier to dress him when he's interested in the picture on the clothing. There are some lovely boys items out there, but few and far between- boys stock area in shops is frequently a half to a third smaller than that of girls.

I find the style of boys clothes very decisive by age. Now he's in 2-3 they are very much big boy clothes like a teenager would wear, whereas a girl can look young and baby/ toddlerish for much longer. He's not ready for potty training, and struggles to keep trousers up, so I find dungerees more practical, but they are not in the shops, I have to order online (wonder why the High St is dying???) Crew neck t-shirts are a nightmare to wrestle and drag over his head- but that's the predominant style for his age-group.

I don't think shops are reflecting the range of what people want- the number of compliements I get over the way he dresses, I doubt I am an oddball. When a child needs a new wardrobe of clothes, they need the clothes- you will have to part with your money and buy something, so in order to keep your child dressed, you do end up topping up their wardrobe with jeans and combats if that's all you can find out there.

I think the heavy generisation of baby clothes, toys and equipment is all about encouraging people to buy new for DC2. If DS1 had been a girl, toys and equipment would not have been bought in pink as I had no intention of replacing anything that could service DC2.

According to the "Future Princess" mat t-shirt I saw in Mothercare earlier, it seems to be having an effect before baby's even been born- surely you'd only buy that if you've been told you're having a girl at a scan???