to think my friends DCs are going to struggle

[Palepinkflowerinsummer]

Before I start, I realise that this has nothing to do with me and I obviously wouldn't say anything to my friend. However, I am wondering if perhaps she is doing the right thing or not. My DD is 14 months so I haven't got to that stage yet.

My friend has two DSs who are 3 and 3 months. The older DS is permitted to go to bed whenever he likes (he was in the garden until after 10 last night) eat whatever he wants, watch as much TV as he wants and generally makes his own decisions. My friend isn't lazy - far from it, she genuinely believes that in doing this bedtime won't be a battle and TV/sweet food won't be seen as a yearned for thing. She is planning to homeschool both DSs. Yesterday she said she was tired and she wished her DS would go to bed. I asked her if she would continue doing so when he's older and at school and she said she wasn't sending him to school.

I can understand where she is coming from - but what do other parents think? I can't help but think her children might struggle to live in the 'real' world where a routine of sorts is demanded from them - or do they just naturally find their own routine?

Any thoughts?

I would be a basket case if we didn't have a set bedtime. I definitely lose my 'happy parent' sheen after about 8 o'clock.

We are close friends with a home educating family. But they do have routines and structures. They are a very large family and there is no way everyone is allowed to eat what and when they like. Or watch TV what and when they like.

Their home is for all! Even the three year old has to understand that!

That said, I did always impose early bed times. Mostly because my DC are massively active and outdoorsy. By 7pm they were pooped and allowing them to stay up would only have resulted in miserable DC.

Even now as teens, I insist on a 9pm departure from downstairs and a 9.30pm lights out. They have to get up early for school and are just too busy to make later bedtimes work.

Also, I do like the downstairs to myself at 9pm. I like to watch an hour of TV. The Wire, The Returned, Mad Men, Luther...probably not good for DC to watch. DH and I also like to chat sans enfants. Things we don't want to bring up in front of them.

I agree with you wordfactory for a family to function there has to be some rules and regulations you don't need to be uberstrict or anything like that just put things in place so the WHOLE FAMILY work , I don't think being all for the kids is beneficial It doesn't mean putting the kids last or anything just not first and foremost,

Again though everyone immediately starts jumping up and down because there is a three yr old who watches as much TV as they want, chooses what they eat and when they sleep. We have therefore assumed that this child is 'running the show' completely, deciding what they wear, whether they clean their teeth or not etc etc etc and that the mother is a worn out self sacrificing hippy. We don't know any of that!

I get tired, but I'm not the self sacrificing hippy, I'm just a human! I got tired before I had kids! I know other people who are hitleresses in the home...they also get tired (and need a glass of wine and some child free time at 8pm every night ;) ) Maybe this mother feels tired, plonks the kid in front of the TV with a chocolate bar (and a fruit shoot?) and gets some kip then?

I had a panic the other day about the dc being up all evening when they're older. But I guess by then they will be old enough to watch post watershed telly or to understand that we do? What age would I be expecting dc up after nine? Actually downstairs and part of things rather than reading in bed?

I've always found the idea of putting children to bed at 6 bizarre. Possibly because my children have never needed that much sleep, and also because I have always worked FT, so I (and the DC when they were still young enough to go to a childminder) never got home before 6.30/7 at the earliest. By the time they'd had dinner, bath, etc etc even if I had wanted to put them to bed at a set time, I'd have struggled to do so before 9.

I have always been quite happy to have them around in the evenings, their company was far more pleasant that their father's, and they would usually be happy to sit around (relatively) quietly in the evenings, not running round the room like whirling dervishes!

I think parenting can be very 'over thought' these days.

My kids thrived on love, good food, attention (but not hovering over them the whole time), lots of laughs, one sacrosanct family evening so pizza and a DVD of their choice, bed time at a sensible time and yes because we wanted space as a couple, mutual respect and a knowledge that behaviours had consequences. Sometimes unpleasant ones.

But that's out style and we are all different.

OP if you say anything at all to your friend I would suggest trying to encourage her to find a local HE support group and some online support too. Theres a really good HE group on Yahoo that's really active, it covers every concern going!
We've looked into HE for DS but have put it to one side for now as time is a major issue at the moment, I'd do it in a heartbeat though
We freerange ours to some extent, eldest chooses to go to bed fairly early but will stay up reading or watching a film occasionally, middle goes to bed earlyish - that will go to pot during the holidays!
They're upstairs though and will rarely come downstairs after they've gone to their rooms so we get our own downtime when we need it.
YABU to thing they will struggle but she needs support it would seem.

Interesting one.

My DC have bedtimes but they are later than most people seem to set. At the moment they are 12 and 9 and they are usually in their rooms by 9pm ish and have been for a few years. They are taking longer to turn the light out these days. DS1 usually has his last toilet visit at about 11.30 and DS2 is usually asleep by 9.45pm. However they do have a routine and without it, I am sure DS1 in particular would be up until midnight, long after DH had gone to bed!

But to me the important thing is that they are both doing fine at school and seem happy and awake. We don't very often see either of them yawning nor do they complain of being tired. The whole 'research apparently shows that young children who go to bed late struggle academically' makes me laugh a bit because that isn't what the research is saying at all. It really says is that children who don't get enough sleep don't do well academically which is a fair point, but mine don't have to get up until 8am so they get the required sleep for their age. I also have a bit of a chuckle about parents who complain their children wake up at 5.30 or 6.00am when they have put their children to bed at 6.30 or 7pm. It would seem wise to me to move their bedtimes if their early mornings are a problem but then apparently they miss their child free evenings. It is all a trade off really and each family has to find its own way but you shouldn't be complaining about it if you have set the bedtime.

Oh and I have tried being quite relaxed about telly time and sweets things but I have to say that they still yearn for it so that didn't work! I have to have some control over it. I think children will naturally find the level they like for these things but unfortunately, I don't think they will necessarily find a healthy level. Some will, but some need more active parenting.

You've hit the nail on the head, Velvet. You do what is right for you, both logistically and personally. You wanted to spend time with your kids and preferred that to spending time with your partner. That is fine, but it also is as parent-led as someone like me who puts her son to bed at 7pm every day. It works for YOU.

We all do things to suit ourselves is the truth. Parenting doesn't happen in a vacuum. OP's friend is avoiding bedtimes because they are an issue and she doesn't want to have that fight. But she brands it a "style" to justify it. It isn't necessarily better for the child - it is better for her because she doesn't like conflict.

My mum wanted us around because we were all she had in the face of an EA and unfaithful husband. It meant that in some ways we weren't allowed to be children because we were always around, hearing everything and seeing everything.

If you don't have time for yourself as an adult, how do you talk about stuff that worries you? How do you unravel and pick yourself back up again without worrying your children that you are falling apart. You don't, is the answer. By not having firm boundaries, rather than allowing me to have a "natural", unhindered childhood, my parents allowed their own personal troubles to leak firmly into our lives.

Adults need time to work stuff out, or else they are sharing too much with their kids. And down that path is where anxiety lies.

Sheshelob - I think you are right about downtime. I think having children around means that you have to play the role of mother all the time but that means you don't get to relax and be your adult self. The one you are with other adults. Having the children around, especially small ones, means you are never off duty from your 'job'. The children are still your focus. It is all very well saying that they learn to behave properly in front of adults and allow everybody to coexist and do their own thing but before you get to that point you have years of having to be 'mum', of keeping an eye on them to keep them safe, having to converse on their terms which you have probably been doing for a lot of the day if you are a SAHM, playing their games or doing what suits or is good for them them rather than what you want to do. I think they pick up very quickly what is expected of them anyway, if you put them to bed at set times but relax the rules slowly as they get older. By the time they are old enough to decide when they go to bed, they will probably be old enough to behave properly anyway. I don't see you need years of letting them stay up with you as small children to teach them this.

I know my children go to bed late but so do I so I still get my time. DS1 in particular could comfortably go to bed later but I like him in his room so that he can wind down and do his own thing, even if he doesn't sleep, leaving us, his parents to do our own thing too even if it is a programme on TV which he wouldn't like and shouldn't be watching anyway.

I am struggling to maintain a regular bedtime with my two and although we wind down from 7pm it can take almost 3 hours for them to sleep. Sometimes I think I am tempted to do what your friend does & do away with the formality of bedtime. I almost fainted on Monday night through sheer exhaustion. I can see why she does what she does but she also needs to be semi flexible and have a cut off point for bedtime say 8pm for her own sanity. So if they are not asleep, they are in their rooms reading, drawing or whatever. I do this with my two so after 7pm downstairs is out of bounds for them. She shouldnt understimate how energy & time consuming it is to be around young children almost 24/7 particularly if she wants to home school. You could gently mention
the importance of creating some time for herself in the evening to rest & prepare for the next day. Some people think the word routine = Gina Ford and it doesnt need to be like that.

Even if she is going to HE then surely he needs to be going to bed at a reasonable time otherwise he is going to be tired the next day and unable to concentrate. I can't help but think that she is storing up trouble for the future.

There is a difference between children in charge and UP.

I agree with Curlew's points here. I also agree with Dahlen wrt taking cognisance of a child's individual temperament (and sleep needs). It's not always a one size fits all and the books can be very wrong.

I never had to go after any of the DCs to get their homework done or take a shower. They were used to managing their own time and keeping up with their own hygiene.

The family I know that does HE have 6 children and their school day is structured around lessons, playtime and household chores. I myself would not ever HE for various reasons but again, with 5 DCs, there is a certain amount of structure and always was - no 'child decides what to eat and when' for instance, because I am not cut out to be a short order cook. But again there is a big difference between leaving snacks and drinks out for a child to graze as he wants and cooking a range of meals you know everyone will eat, and standing ready for orders in the kitchen at mealtime.

I think that what she hasn't realised is that once the 3month old is old enough to walk and talk it will all be a lot harder- what one wants may be in direct conflict with what the other wants and you can't please them both. When I have watched from the sidelines I have found that one child is more reasonable and/ or suggestible - and they are the ones who gives way.

I found that our friends suddenly introduced a bit more discipline when they had a baby on the receiving end of their ds's brutality. That made me feel really sad that they were pretty much saying they cared enough to make sure their children were safe but not mine. We've been quite distant since-I have to be in the right mood to see someone, however lovely, who explains to my two year old why they've been hit/pushed or had their hair. Empathising and understanding frustrations I get and support. Telling my child, whilst cuddling the other, that they got their hair pulled because they really wanted the special toy (that belonged to my child and they were playing with at the time) I do not.