to think my friends DCs are going to struggle

[Palepinkflowerinsummer]

Before I start, I realise that this has nothing to do with me and I obviously wouldn't say anything to my friend. However, I am wondering if perhaps she is doing the right thing or not. My DD is 14 months so I haven't got to that stage yet.

My friend has two DSs who are 3 and 3 months. The older DS is permitted to go to bed whenever he likes (he was in the garden until after 10 last night) eat whatever he wants, watch as much TV as he wants and generally makes his own decisions. My friend isn't lazy - far from it, she genuinely believes that in doing this bedtime won't be a battle and TV/sweet food won't be seen as a yearned for thing. She is planning to homeschool both DSs. Yesterday she said she was tired and she wished her DS would go to bed. I asked her if she would continue doing so when he's older and at school and she said she wasn't sending him to school.

I can understand where she is coming from - but what do other parents think? I can't help but think her children might struggle to live in the 'real' world where a routine of sorts is demanded from them - or do they just naturally find their own routine?

Any thoughts?

True Dahlen.
You need to read the books but wait and see what your child is like- they are all so different.
You can straight away see it on here- some thrived on it- some had to go into therapy.
One size never fits all.

It does turn mother into the doormat - it doesn't matter how tired she gets- her needs come last.

"Not everyone wants to move into the thankless world of productivity targets, KPIs, annual performance reviews and the annual pub and club "event", at a local establishment more upmarket than a Wetherspoons but still a chain pub, where Terry from quality assurance does nine tequilas, shows everyone his equipment and passes out next to the ATM."

Hmmm. Somebody always says something like this, and that's when hackles go up. Fine to raise your children however you want, but the "oh, we're such free spirit, we're not constrained by the trivial concerns that trammel other people" attitude is incredibly arrogant and patronising.

I have a friend similar to the OP's and I think the misunderstanding comes from people misunderstanding the point if parenting ideals like gentle discipline and attachment parenting...

Both of those don't mean an absence of parenting, just a different way, but when I watch her son punching her in the face because he is high spirited or scratching an biting his baby sister because he is not having her sole attention and this behaviours being completely ignored and not confronted then I know it is an absence of parenting, she cops out because she is stressed out and doesn't want the hassle.

I have spoken to her, but she considers me a dictator because of how I parent dd so my opinion is thoroughly in one ear and out of the other.

Her ds is going to a forest school so he can learn to explore himself through non traditional education, which is really how she views it, but if he keeps on the way he is being allowed to go he will be exploring it alone with no friends because none of the children will want to be pummelled for picking up a stick he wanted.

Deaf ears though

I think it is the attitude that it is the 'superior' way that raises my hackles.
If it was merely the best way for the individual I wouldn't care.

I have recently read an article about children being allowed to do exactly as they please.
The authors seemed to consider it the best method to raise children who are confident and capable and autonomous.

Although DS has a bed time, it's not that early, and sometimes it's him who asks to go to bed. Because he knows he's tired.
Most children don't need to be in bed by 7, for example. It just seems convenient for the parents.

I agree with Manthanxiety on this. We didnt impose a fixed routine for DCs around bedtime. They are now teens and rather than learning to go to bed at a fixed time they have learnt to recognise when they are tired and go to bed then.

What titzup said. I picked my battles rather than fighting no battles. I wouldn't tolerate rudeness or lack of consideration for others but I couldn't get bothered about bedtimes. Everyone is different and as exoticfuits says, you actually can't really tell if you're doing the best thing until it's too late!

I do think the lack of micromanagement has made mine more responsible, not less. DD1 knows if she doesn't get up for work, I won't bother spending hours cajoling her. I'm happy to give her a lift if I can as we're out in the sticks but she wakes me up with a cup of tea, not the other way round. She's found out for herself that if she stays up too late, she's tired the next day! It's a fallacy that such children will be unprepared for the real world. A child who makes their own choices is likely to do very well - because they want to, not because they are being pushed. DD1 has a kind of confidence and drive I wish I'd had at her age. Of course, that may not be the homeschooling or her upbringing at all, but I do see it in a lot of her homeschooled peers.

I think she hasn't had her children long enough for them to need a break from her and a good run around with 100 other kids and the relaxing certainty of a few normal school rules.

One of my children is your classic 'would thrive at a forest school' and we did half plan this for him, but two things stopped it dead in its tracks. Firstly I was ill with my second, and physically could not put in the commute, so we sent him to the local primary to see what would happen. Secondly, after getting to know some of the parents who were thinking similarly, we realised we did not fit in, and in fact found them tedious and gullible (into Steinerism and homeopathy etc etc).

To our surprise he completely thrived with what we felt was quite a strict reception teacher and after three years is part of the large school community and loves it. He talks about the rules quite a lot in a surprisingly affectionate way and we have seen him develop really happily. We were left feeling 'jeez, what the hell did we know?'

What I'm saying is that yes each child is different but also parents get fixed ideas about what their child is like without trying them out in other environments.

I think it's a burden for the child to be expected to make their own decisions.

Thank you for replies.

To whoever said her children will turn out 'better' than mine - that isn't why I posted. I was interested in getting a range of views. I try to follow an attached parenting style with my daughter, although in some instances it isn't possible as we do both have to work, and don't have a TV so hours of watching it aren't possible anyway in terms of autonomy. However, I wondered if there was merit to this or if it ran the risk of raising children who, effectively, struggled to fit in modern society. We may shun the rules and the routines and the structures of society but unless we're very rich we all have to live in it.

Of course, her DSs are very loved and looked after and that's what matters.

If I could have afforded to be a SAHM I think I would have liked to have HE my youngest DS. But I would still have to have routine.

I just wonder,what would happen if we all had to pay to have our children educated...would more people choose to Home educate? OR would more HE children be got together in groups to be tutored,which seems to me like being in very small schools and therefore defeating the object?

I used to be friends with someone who parented like this pre my own DC. We gradually drifted apart because I got fed up of being invited over for dinner and then told that certain topics of conversation were off limits because the kids were still around. It drove me absolutely potty to have no child free time whatsoever

I so agree about child free time in the evenings.

When the DC dropped their day sleeping I would put them to bed at 6pm, then cartwheel down the hallway in delight. Gin o'clock and dinner with DH. Ahhhh, those were the days

Now they are 6 and 8yo but still go to bed at 7pm for reading time, lights out 8pm ish.

God knows what I will do when they start going to bed later than 9pm.

Child free time. Interesting point.

You can do it when they are little- but actually I think the really important thing is to start early to teach them to respect other people's space. Mine have never gone to bed particularly early, but the focus of the day shifts after dinner. The can be up, but, for example, the living room is adult space. They can watch what I want to watch with me, or listen to my music or join in adult conversation in an adult way, or they can go and do something else.

Mind you, when dd (17) was going on about Marxism at 11.00 one day last week, dp did text me saying "why doesn't she just GO TO BED!"

The crucial point about the OP to me is that this mother is actually tired and wishes she could have time to herself.

So it is not a case of winding down together with dc being the best solution for everybody. It is not a case of a later bedtime suiting the whole family.

It is a case of one person, the one who perceives herself as the least important (and surprise, surprise- it is the mother!), making a habit of sacrificing her wishes to everybody else's.

If the dc grow up into horrors, it won't be because of the late nights or the icecream: it will be if the mother does not manage to make it clear in time that everybody matters, including the boring adults who look after you.

curlew we do similar - we tell the DDs- 10 and 12 - that after 8pm is adult time - you MAY join us - we will be watching what we want on TV, listening to what we want on the radio or sometimes just playing scrabble or reading - if what we are viewing is inappropriate, you will have to entertain yourself elsewhere in the house. ( They do have some say in things - if there is something they really want to see on TV, or if they fancy playing a particular board game etc..)

They go to bed when they are tired (usually round 9 at the moment - 8.30 if they want to read) and get up for school/whatever we have never had trouble with this...

Do DC of these parents decide to clean their own teeth?

Mine had a set bedtime when they were little for my benefit- I can't see what is wrong with that. Once they could stay up and respect my need for peace and quiet and doing my own thing it didn't matter.
Once you get through to them being adults, and see all your friends DCs through to adults, you understand that all the little things that you saw as so important didn't matter.
Whether you carried them around all the time or not- whether you fed them lumps or purée etc matter not one jot.

They need unconditional love, security and time- a sense of humour is vital - and a mother who doesn't take herself too seriously is a plus.

Security stems from an adult with more experience. Teeth need to be brushed- full stop.

curlew Shouldn't DP be asking why isn't she down the pub getting drunk and shagging strangers?

I guess the downtime people are people who have a need to have the downtime in the house, alone or with just DH, rather than having it by simply going out and leaving the DC with their DP or a babysitter? Or having it before the DC go to bed by having their DP take the child out for the evening.

I have often wondered if those people who insist on early bedtimes, are the same people who are annoyed that their working DP spends no time with their children because of being at work and then doing some relaxing hobby at the weekend? I'd much rather spend a couple of hours with with my family every day, than none and 48 hours solid over a weekend!

this kind of free range parenting won'tharm them as such but I do think being so child centred is exhausting putting a little person in charge can't be good long term and these kids need to mix as they get older so if they are used to things going there way at home It might be hard to adapt to being told what to do,

Very scary for a 3yr old to be 'in charge'- much better to be free to be a child and have a loving parent 'in charge'.

Reminds me of that film Big Daddy.

"What do you wanna be called?"
"Frankenstein!"

"What do you wanna eat?"
"Twenty packets of ketchup!"

I have seen the results of little people being in charge they turn into big demanding PITA teenagers it really isn't great,humans need boundries humans need to be taught boundries little humans have not the maturity to be in charge they need the adults in their lives to help them,