to think my friends DCs are going to struggle

[Palepinkflowerinsummer]

Before I start, I realise that this has nothing to do with me and I obviously wouldn't say anything to my friend. However, I am wondering if perhaps she is doing the right thing or not. My DD is 14 months so I haven't got to that stage yet.

My friend has two DSs who are 3 and 3 months. The older DS is permitted to go to bed whenever he likes (he was in the garden until after 10 last night) eat whatever he wants, watch as much TV as he wants and generally makes his own decisions. My friend isn't lazy - far from it, she genuinely believes that in doing this bedtime won't be a battle and TV/sweet food won't be seen as a yearned for thing. She is planning to homeschool both DSs. Yesterday she said she was tired and she wished her DS would go to bed. I asked her if she would continue doing so when he's older and at school and she said she wasn't sending him to school.

I can understand where she is coming from - but what do other parents think? I can't help but think her children might struggle to live in the 'real' world where a routine of sorts is demanded from them - or do they just naturally find their own routine?

Any thoughts?

Why is downtime odd, velvet? Did you not like having time by yourself before you had kids?

I think free-parenting is problematic. And a bit arrogant, if I'm honest.

sheshelob, I agree. I also believe that children of that age thrive on routine and find it reassuring.

IME it's the thwarted rebellious eternal adolescents who project the need to break rules and live a free range life.

A 3yo can choose sock colour or sandwich filling; bedtime, mealtimes and food should be managed by a responsible adult.

Your mate sounds away with the fairies.

I don't get how a bit of downtime is odd either? My DD is only 9mo so tiny really but i try to get her in bed between 7 and 8pm. I love having a break in the evening.

It's genuinely frightening as a child when you don't know what to expect. I don't think it is The Man trying to brain wash us all into being work-bots by the time we are five. Humans like structure.

In terms of schooling, I liked school because it had structure. I knew where I was with school. If I'd have had to be at the whim of my parents teaching me, I doubt I would have been as successful in my education or my career. I got confidence from school.

This all smacks of martyr parenting to me, and I have no time for it. No "me" time? What, am I supposed to worship at the sacred altar that is my two year old until he decides in all his 'rational' wisdom, to go to sleep?

Give me a break.

Not everyone has a job which requires them to be in a routine - nobody in this house does and most of my friends are also fairly routine free, so it won't necessarily be a shock to the system. Even in my earliest days of employment I worked in pubs where being nocturnal really helped...!

Find this fascinating - my dd is 9 and if I let her she would literally watch repeats on iplayer 24 hours a day. My DS1 is 7 and he's probably like the one on one attention that home schooling brings. That all being said they both love school and love all their friends - I had a friend who was home schooled and she basically spend all her childhood lonely - so unless its possible to find a good network of friends then I don't like the idea of home schooling.

Definitely not for me. I have family members who wonder why I'm so strict with my two-year-old's 7pm bedtime, but a. He does dreadfully the next day if he falls asleep late and b. I need time in the evening to go to the gym, see my husband, read a book etc. If he was so unhappy he'd fuss and cry, but he chats to his cuddly toys and quickly nods off.

I let him choose his clothes, which books we should read, which cuddly toy he wants in his stroller, which CD he wants in the morning--all of which he finds terribly exciting. But by god I'm strict about bedtime and nap time, and know that I have a happy boy to show for it.

sounds like how I was brought up, yes I did struggle a bit when I started working and I do still struggle a bit with geting my kids to school on time but nights like tonight where the youngest is ill and needs me to stay up are much easier for me than it is for some of my friends and Ive always worked evenings/nights so it fits my sleeping pattern so there are pros and cons.

My children don't have set bedtimes either but we do have be quiet so we dont piss off the neighbours time and they aren't allowed the tv on after cbbc finishes so they generally take thenselves to bed at a reasonable time as they get bored

Mine always went to bed late by British standards and they have so far all done well. I didn't want the hassle of a prolonged bedtime and constant interruptions while I tried to watch tv or whatever. The DCs learned to play quietly and amuse themselves without requiring constant attention and feedback and sorting out of squabbles from a hostage adult, speak with adults and not take over any room they were in, help with clearing away after family dinner and the evening tidyup, and could read downstairs with lights on. They were all happy except for DD3 who was a very fretful baby from day one (no advice helped; I tried every single thing I read and also asked the doctor, and she is still prone to anxiety and overthinking everything). Their school performance was great. They generally got to bed around 9 o'clock and I never heard a peep put of any of them by 9.10 or so.

They all settled into the 8-3 routine of school when the time came, and all were fine in later childhood and into their teen years. DD1 is now a financial analyst so nothing massively out of the box career wise. DS is in university and manages his time well. DD2 is off to university this autumn. DD3 and DD4 are still slogging through school.

I remember being a child who was sent to bed while it was still light out and spending hours calling for drinks of water, needing to use the loo, asking for this or that toy (was a brat) and actually not going to sleep until hours after being banished to my room. When I got over being a pita and learned to read I read far longer in the dark than was good for my eyes. I was the oldest of three and for years my mother spent her evenings trotting upstairs and downstairs seeing wtf what on earth was wrong this time. OK, she could have ignored the yelling and hysterical crying, and maybe it would have stopped in time, but she spent years trying to go by the book with each one of us as we came along, thinking it would surely work this time, and it was nothing but frustrating.

I disagree that downtime needs to be time when your children are not in the room with you. I think it is really good for children to learn that when mum is sitting reading or listening to music or looking at Pinterest or whatever she is not available to you, just as she is not available when she is on the phone or talking to someone else. The age of 3 is a good time to start with boundaries of this sort. Up to then children benefit from the company and pretty much constant attention of their parents or caregivers (not martyr-like pandering but constructive companionship).

If you have children who flourish on about 8 to 10 hours of sleep a night it is far nicer to have them awake until later in the evening than awake at the crack of stupid o'clock in the morning. If you manage to teach them to coexist peacefully in the same room with adults who are doing other things then you get the very nice bonus of civilised children who can be taken anywhere.

Sounds like she is an adherent of Unschooling. I came across some information on this recently and it sounds like hard work but it's interesting to me. It seems to be an extension of attachment parenting so the emphasis is on the family unit and avoiding authoritarian structures like school. It is not just permissiveness but is about encouraging the child to make his/her own decisions and learn to exercise self-control.

So if she is pursuing this kind of parenting philosophy then I would say her DC will be fine when they grow up as she is actively parenting them and trying to encourage the best in them. If she was just a lazy cow who couldn't be bothered telling her child to go to bed and lets him run wild then that would be different.

Not everyone wants to move into the thankless world of productivity targets, KPIs, annual performance reviews and the annual pub and club "event", at a local establishment more upmarket than a Wetherspoons but still a chain pub, where Terry from quality assurance does nine tequilas, shows everyone his equipment and passes out next to the ATM. The one home-schooled person I know disappeared off to an academic career in an incredibly obscure field. All power to him.

maltese's first post is one of the funniest things I've read on here.

The thing I'm most worried about here is that the parents have over-committed. Fair play to them if they keep it up, but it's a big if.

Well, my DD was brought up just like this. She never seemed to need much sleep from a baby so we never enforced a bedtime. She was homeschooled. Sometimes in her teen years she was way later to bed than us, early hours at least.

She got 10 GCSEs at mostly A and A* done all on her own with no tutors. She has just done a year of AS levels and is one of their best and most self motivated students. They cannot stop raving about her. She has just taken a full time job for over the summer in a well known fast food place and after 6 weeks is doing better than any of their other new trainees and is already training others. She often has 6am starts and has naturally adjusted her late bedtime on these days.
Being a home educator I know she is far from an exception. Compared to lots of teens I see she is lovely, responsible, fun, friendly, considerate and close to us all DD2 is coming along in much the same vein.

YABU. I'm afraid. They may even turn out better than your DCs!

The term 'unschooling' is a term that irritates me - you can't 'unschool' a child who hasn't been.
'Attachment parenting' is another- it implies that other parents are not attached.

She has obviously read all the books, and as hers are young it is early days- quite interesting to be on the sidelines and see how her theory works out in practice.

Just be relaxed and quietly do your own thing and don't worry about her- she sounds sure she is right.

YANBU

I judge simply because I cannot see how it can be good for a child not to have some structure and routine.

Also anyone who did it this way or was raised this way - you're hardly likely to say it was not good for you.

I am appreciably aware that pointing this out makes me a pedant, but homeschooling does not necessarily entail a lack of structure and routine.

Home schooling does however allow you to do your own thing- and is suited to those who don't like structure and routine. (It doesn't follow that all HEers do without it- they are all different)

I know two families who work like this. One has children who are a pleasure to be with. The other has children who we actively avoid because part of the package of allowing the children to do what suits them includes letting them hit and pull the hair of my children (youngest just two and started several months ago with her). I can't hang around waiting for them to turn into the delightful adults I am sure they will. That last sentence sounds sarcastic but it's not. At nearly eight the older one is turning out okay but I am not prepared to be part of the process.

I'm with Sheshelob, my brother and I were raised in a very similar manner, in an attempt to raise us to be 'free spirits'

I remember being very confused and unhappy for a lot of the time and extremely envious of friends whose mum's parented in a more traditional style, being told what I could and couldn't do represented security and care to me. The only place I was content and could relax was school where I knew exactly what was expected of me and how to get things 'right' because I knew what the rules were.

We have both grown up to have clinical depression and varying forms of paralyzing anxiety which has completely blighted our adult lives. Even now after years of therapy I find even basic decisions frightening and long for someone to make them for me.

Isnt it UP? Unconditional Parenting?

I know someone who does this with home schooling and it certainly appears as though her daughter is turning out incredibly well.

Just because its far from what you consider normal, doesnt mean it is wrong.

A lot of children like school because it is so much simpler- they know the rules. I know many who are a delight but very difficult for their own parents. It depends a lot in her own DCs - she sounds like a parent who has the theory and is fitting the DCs to it, rather than waiting to see what sort of DCs she has.

UP is the most misunderstood form of parenting- many think they are doing it when they are not.

I actually think it could be the other way round - a child who's had their parents micromanaging them for years - deciding everything for them, putting them to bed, getting them up, getting them to school...how are they going to cope when it's up to them to set The Routine, get themselves up for work, when they've never had to take responsibility...

...so yeah, it works both ways. I find it bizarre how people think you need to be 'trained' for work .

I also resent the implication that allowing choice in food, a lot of TV and a flexible bedtime means 'free parenting' and letting the child run the house. I do all of the above but I am the boss in this house make no mistake. My motto is 'pick your battles'. Certain things are important to us, other things not so much.

As a nice, MC parent OP' friend is practising a form of 'enlightened parenting' that encourages her children to think for themselves. If she were on benefits on a sink estate, she would just be called a bad parent.

I don't see anything wrong with what she's doing personally. I think there is a world of difference between the parent who allows their child to behave like this as some sort of well-thought-out parenting ethos, and the parent who simply CBA to parent so lets their child run wild.

I think the biggest factor, however, is not the parenting but the individual temperament. A certain type of child would thrive under this set up and become a mature adult with a powerful sense of direction and drive. Another could end up becoming hopelessly directionless and over entitled. As parents, part of our job is to adjust our parenting style based on the needs of our individual children.

My only concern here is what she's teaching her DC about parents and men/women relationships. Presumably her DH is funding her ability to be at home to practise this and home ed in the future. Her DC will grow up seeing her subjugate her own needs to those of her DC (e.g. being tired because her DC don't sleep 'normal' hours) while her DH manages to avoid it by going out to work. Reinforcing the notion of mum as self-sacrificing for the good of the family (not a judgement on SAHMs in general, just the lifestyle of this one in particular).

titzup - I totally agree with you on that. Always amazes me how many parents are still picking up after their teens and waking them up every morning. IME teens like that grow into adults who still rely on mum and dad to bail them out in various ways well into their 30s and 40s.

It's all about balance, isn't it.