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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be dispirited by the fact that there are properly outraged threads about Saatchi and Inverdale no here today, but

125 replies

curlew · 07/07/2013 08:54

....... they are being described as "cunts" and "fannys".

They are obviously both despicable in their attitudes to women. But when we reach into our " terms of abuse" vocabularies we pull out words for women's genitals. Sad

OP posts:
curlew · 07/07/2013 11:00

But the word "cunt" became a swear word because it was a word for a vulva. There aren't two distinct separate meanings of the word.

OP posts:
MagzFarqharson · 07/07/2013 11:01

Wha? lets have an argument about what names to call these idiots?

(I used 'knob', as it goes) Grin

Crumbledwalnuts · 07/07/2013 11:02

I'm afraid I disagree tethers :) it's remarkable to suggest the word has nothing to do with vaginas, quite remarkable. We'll have to agree to differ!

tethersend · 07/07/2013 11:02

Would you say that when the word 'bastard' is heard, most people think of an illegitimate child?

StealthPolarBear · 07/07/2013 11:03

No, but that is the origin of the word, and the stigma that it used to have has led to the word now being used as an insult.
Can you think of any words that used to have good associations that are now used as insults.

Xenia · 07/07/2013 11:04

His statement just vindicates her. He is criticising her because she would not speak to the press yet most sensible famous people say nothing to the press and the least said the better.

Also he wanted his step daughter who is nothing to do with him to go straight into work and not to Oxford. Silly him. If I were NL I would be appalled at a step parent recommending not bothering with university.
He is also old enough to be her father and not very attractive and a smoker so not sure what she ever saw in him.

Strange she moved out though. Usually best to stay put in terms of divorce settlements, whatever your gender.

StealthPolarBear · 07/07/2013 11:04

Actually gay (used to mean happy, cheerful, now means a bit pathetic) might be one :o

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes · 07/07/2013 11:04

I do tend to agree that cunt has moved towards being a general insult and many that use it don't give a moment's thought to it's derivation, I only hear the insult when I hear it. Bastard ditto. However the derivation is still from vagina AFAIK. Whereas the game of cricket is not derived from the insect or vice versa.

StealthPolarBear · 07/07/2013 11:05

though I suspect the origins of that insult are complicated by its race through homosexuality.

Crumbledwalnuts · 07/07/2013 11:05

Sometimes - you'd have to be careful not to use it to an illegitimate child. Perhaps I'm too well brought up. Cunt simply hasn't got that far. That's why many women don't use it, because of the association. Come back in 40 years and you might be right, but it's not true now.

tethersend · 07/07/2013 11:05

I think George Orwell describes it well:

The whole business of swearing, especially English swearing, is mysterious. Of its very nature swearing is as irrational as magic indeed, it is a species of magic. But there is also a paradox about it, namely this: Our intention in swearing is to shock and wound, which we do by mentioning something that should be kept secretusually something to do with the sexual functions. But the strange thing is that when a word is well established as a swear word, it seems to lose its original meaning; that is, it loses the thing that made it into a swear word. A word becomes an oath because it means a certain thing, and, because it has become an oath, it ceases to mean that thing. For example, 'fuck'. The Londoners do not now use, or very seldom use, this word in its original meaning; it is on their lips from morning till night, but it is a mere expletive and means nothing. Similarly with 'bugger', which is rapidly losing its original sense.

Words used as insults seem to be governed by the same paradox as swear words. A word becomes an insult, one would suppose, because it means something bad; but m practice its insult-value has little to do with its actual meaning. For example, the most bitter insult one can offer to a Londoner is 'bastard'--which, taken for what it means, is hardly an insult at all. And the worst insult to a woman, either in London or Paris, is 'cow'; a name which might even be a compliment, for cows are among the most likeable of animals. Evidently a word is an insult simply because it is meant as an insult, without reference to its dictionary meaning; words, especially swear words, being what public opinion chooses to make them.

tethersend · 07/07/2013 11:08

I think that's it, Crumbled- I think that 'cunt' has come that far, and you disagree; perhaps it is becoming one of those words but is not yet universally acknowledged to have done so?

StealthPolarBear · 07/07/2013 11:09

I'm sorry I don't agree. Insults come about because people see something that they think is awful or disgusting, and then use it to describe the next "disgusting" thing they see. If you think about it, they're all being used as similes.

HappyGirlNow · 07/07/2013 11:14

curlew - disingenuous??? Really?

Who the hell are you to say that anyone who doesn't think cunt is a 'worse' word than prick is 'disingenuous'? Do you actually know the meaning of the word disingenuous? I hope not and you were just being so insulting by accident!

dis·in·gen·u·ous

/ˌdisinˈjenyo͞oəs/
Adjective
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
Synonyms
insincere - false - devious - hollow-hearted

Maybe you don't agree but don't call people disingenuous just because they may have a different viewpoint to you! Say you consider them wrong instead - it's a lot more polite (and accurate).

Angry
pianodoodle · 07/07/2013 11:15

Is there already an Inverdale bashing thread then? Just read the BBC article and came here in order to start one but too late obviously :)

Has anyone said piss-flaps yet? Off to find out...

HappyGirlNow · 07/07/2013 11:15

People can describe women as 'knobs' where I come from whoknows

SigmundFraude · 07/07/2013 11:16

'Could you say that again, sigmmund, in different words? I don't understand.'

Female genital swearwords are unacceptable to some people on here, depending on how they are used. The suggestion seems to be that it is Sad to use these words in this way. Calling a man (Saatchi & other Bloke) these female genital swearwords, in light of the 'crimes' that these men have committed is not on for a certain MN demographic. I'm not really too sure of the connotations , actually, I probably am but can't be arsed to go into that.

Other swearwords used to describe these men presumably are fine.

I guess the censorship would involve the debate here about how unpleasant it is to use these female genital related words to describe 'bad' men. I have inverted the word 'bad' as everyone's opinions as to what constitutes bad are not the same. Shaming is censorship.

Hope that's clearer.

tethersend · 07/07/2013 11:24

Stealth- I disagree that swear words are similes.

How many of us have called a child a 'little bugger'?

I take your point about the origins of the words, but what the words signify changes over time- 'gay' is a good example.

mercury7 · 07/07/2013 11:42

obscenities can seem unimaginative and lazy, surely there are plenty of non expletives which convey sufficient contempt?
Works like vile, abhorrent, despicable etc

Or you can go the 'he's a bounder and a cad' route...but that does come across as humorous /tongue-in-cheek.

I suppose there are times when only obscenities will do, but they should perhaps only be used in extremis lest they lose their sting?

I dont know why the c-word is the worst one, I'd say the f word is the next one down and that's not gender specific.

I think words like prick and cock have lost their power to shock because we often see something humorous about mens bits, ans so you can call someone a prick in a sort of eye rolling but affectionate way (?)

But women's bits seem more secret/sacred/unmentionable, and so the c word has retained it's power to shock.

Then again fanny and piss-flaps seem quite jokey so perhaps my theory is tosh?

KobayashiMaru · 07/07/2013 11:50

Cunt is a powerful insult not because it means something bad, but because its means something taboo, something not spoken of in polite conversation.
Personally I'm proud that womens genitalia are so much more powerful than mens in this regard. Up the Cunt, as it were.

mercury7 · 07/07/2013 12:00

Kobaya, very true..womens parts have more power by dint of the stronger taboo....but that can be a double edged sword, I dont think it actually gives women any more weight or status.

Generally the strongest taboos are reserved for things we find most offensive and abhorrent, eg the incest taboo.
In some cultures menstruation is considered taboo, this leads to women being seen as unclean.
it doesn't give women more power, it gives men a reason to see them as a threat and then segregate and control them

Ezza1 · 07/07/2013 12:05

Wtf? Seriously? Overthinking and over analysing swear words ??? Confused

StealthPolarBear · 07/07/2013 12:06

Overthinking better than underthinking wouldn't you say?

StealthPolarBear · 07/07/2013 12:09

Or are you happy to underthink and fail to challenge?

mercury7 · 07/07/2013 12:14

some people like to live on the surface and not question things.
I like to use my inner anthropologist to examine things and understand whats going on
knowledge is power and all that Wink

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