To say why not use IVF to choose the sex of a baby?

[Poppycattlepetal]

If people could save up for the IVF required, just don't see who else's business is it if they have a boy or a girl baby, really?

It seems U that we are not legally allowed to try for this in Britain. Clearly, we'd not all choose boys. See this mother of five sons in the Indy today: www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ban-on-sex-selection-of-ivf-embryos-is-not-justified-says-ethicist-8683940.html

It is allowed in US to do this, and you don't hear of a population imbalance over there. Just what seems like an incannily high proportion of celebrities who have twins, one of each!

I do get the issues about things being very different in other countries where there can be a cultural pressure to have sons of course. And i'm only talking about methods used before pregnancy begins. And obviously this would have to be genuinely freely chosen. Just feel that as the majority in the UK doesn't share any particular preference, why not let the people who do really mind, have the choice?

Islamic culture is not the only one who strongly favours male children.

There are quite a lot of them.

To be honest unless there were health problems I would wonder why anybody was having an early scan.

What do people do, out of interest, if they have aborted 5 female fetuses and then get a boy who is primarily interested in fashion, dressing up and make up and undergoes gender reassignment as soon as legally able?

Do you kill the boy at the first sign of cross dressing and start the sorry cycle again?

Alis - obviously they are having an early scan purely for gender reasons.

Yes I suppose chinese might...

Yes - that was what I was inferring. I wouldn't actually sit around wondering about it. Figure of speech.

And again, it is unecessary. All about what the parents want.

My point is wether you agree with it or not parents DO select the gender of their children. If they cant afford PGD, they have the option of abortion. So if it happens anyway, why not legalise PGD?

What about all the people who carry on and on getting pregnant having girl after girl until they get a boy? Thats been happening for decades and must contribute to over-population

Over population world wide is a myth. Certain areas are over populated not the world at large.

Well the people who would choose gender selective anything for non medical reasons need to be educated not given license to behave appallingly.

Presumably IVF couples can resort to the same process though?

Presumably you can, having gotten pregnant via IVF then have an early scan and request a termination (assuming your desire to perpetuate gender stereotypes outweighs your desire for a healthy child).

So why should we offer extra selection to IVF couples?

I genuinely don't understand why it is okay to take one aspect of a whole person and say 'if that isn't right, then I don't want the child'.

People would go crazy if you did it with the bit that determines skin colour...or the bit that determines IQ. So why is it okay to do it with the bit that determines gender?

Ok, but since you are talking about how wrong it is of people to prefer one gender over another, arent you concerned about the 11(unwanted) daughters they churn out before having a son?

And how do you propose we go about educating them? Telling people "you are wrong to feel this way, its appaling" probably wont work. I think because of the stigma attatched to gender selection, people are likely to do it secretly and not ask for opinions beforehand.

I reckon the Beckhams did it

ICBINEG - Im not saying its right or wrong (personally I dont have a problem with it) but since it happens anyway and cant be prevented, why not legalise it?

Because legalising it would send the message that society thinks it is okay to decide you don't want a baby because of it's gender.

So do you also think it would be okay to select on skin colour and IQ?

I think they did as well. I also think it's a bit tragic.

David Beckham cheated on his wife - doesn't make cheating morally ok does it.

GoodTouch - "it happens anyway so why not legalise it" is such a bad line of reasoning.

It is morally wrong for people to treat people differently due to gender when no actual difference exists. It is discrimination and ethically wrong plain and simple.

In my line of work if a female applicant and a male applicant apply for the same role with the same qualifications, the male will get the job every time.

Is that morally right? Is that ethical?

It happens because of gender stereotyping. Because people cannot see past the gender to the actual person underneath.

Now imagine it isn't your job that will be denied you purely because of your gender but your whole right to existence.

How can that be okay? How can that be ethical?

I find it difficult to believe that this is a genuine question. When the answer is so self-evident.

No I dont think its the same as skin colour and IQ.. (surely you can work out what the skin colour will be though?)

The way it works where its legal is you have to have at least one child of the opposite gender than the one you implant. People try all sorts of things like wearing tight pants and drinking cranberry juice to try to get one or the other gender. So I just dont see it as being such a leap to have a bit more certainty.

Imagine, trying for a girl after 5 boys (like the lady in the piece) and being overwhelmed with dissappointment when a baby boy was handed to you? Wouldnt it be best for everyone if she had been able to stop at 2? Surely boy number 5 who shouldve been a girl is going to suffer more than the gender selected daughter who might be a bit butch?

re beckams..I bet the oldest boy becomes a hair dresser and the girl is the best footballer of the lot and ends up playing for England.

No, skin colour is complex as can be seen from any number of cases where twins are born with different colour skin.

If you think it is different then why is it different?

A baby is not defined by it's colour or IQ. but it isn't defined by it's gender either?!?

ICBINEG - your last post has thrown me a bit. I shall have to think.

I didnt think of it as part of a wider issue

Do you think the gender discrimination (as I described below) in the work place is also okay then?

Sorry I think we are getting out of sync and x-posting.

I shall go to bed and give you time to think!

"If you think it is different then why is it different?

A baby is not defined by it's colour or IQ. but it isn't defined by it's gender either?!?"

Touche. I dont know

I can?t believe after my too-long previous post I have more to say, but must add:

Another experience I have had was of holding a normally fertile friend?s hand as she wept because the scan had showed her last DC was another boy. As I was between DS1 and DS2 and quite open about it, I did ask myself: is she insensitive to bring this complaint to me who can?t even get pg? Actually, I was proud. By trusting me with her grief she had shown that I, too, despite my incompetence at making children, had become a full member of the Mothers? Club. I was in the club because I understood why she did cry: in a way, not being able to control the gender of your child brings up the same sense of powerlessness as infertility does.

Having children is all about feeling frighteningly helpless. And this isn?t the modern pattern. We are taught to control everything, to choose from 100 cereals, we are furious if power turns out to come from money and not all of us have enough money, we prove we are adult by choosing so calmly and well. Once our DC are involved, the stakes are much higher: hurt me, but DON?T TOUCH my child!

Yet pregnancy: at first the baby is inside you, almost part of you like an extra organ. (Not that you really control your organs. Mine are going to give me a terrible hangover if I don?t go to bed soon.) Then you are in labour and anyone who thinks they can control that has obviously not had a DC. Then they are in the terrible twos, or they encounter a beastly person who oddly doesn?t share your view that DC is perfect, or if you luckily get so far unscathed, DC will announce the worst possible partner or a move to the country you spent your life escaping?

Infertility: you don?t touch alcohol for a decade (what if this is the week you finally get pg?) or coffee either (marginally higher risk of MC?), raw fish, soft cheese, cats. You don?t run the marathon. You have sex though you are mad at DH. Your doctor tells you to inject yourself in the stomach every day at the same time, whether you are on a longhaul flight or at DC1?s school play. Still you can?t guarantee any of this will ever result in a child.

We argue because we know how much it matters: can we control our wish for this particular kind of child? Will trying to control gender lead to trying to control everything else too? Should I have to control my desire for control? Should the government control me? Is there anyone anywhere in control?

Motherhood is ABOUT control and its terrifying absence, which is why I thank you all for MN: the is-DC?s-shyness-my-fault-or-a-mysterious-ailment, the my-friend-is-being-crazy-about-who-comes-to-her-wedding, the should-I-control-my-response-even-though-someone-else-is being-VVUR. This is the silver lining in the cloud: our shared fear of losing control brings us together. (And here endeth the sermon. Sorry, clearly I can?t even control my own droning on!)

An interesting post, CHJR- mothers simply will not understand that they have no control. They appear to think that they can order their whole DCs environment as in lots of little ways- e.g recently a poster was upset because the grandmother has told her DS to have a biscuit without asking and the mother thinks it polite to ask. It is the grandmother's house- her biscuits! The only way the mother can control is keep the DS away from the grandmother. You can control yourself- you can't control others.

I think that fact that we have so much choice e.g the 101 cereals makes us think the whole of life is a choice in 'I want a boy and a girl- why the hell can't I if I can pay for it?'

I am afraid that I can't raise any sympathy for a woman who cries at the scan because she has the 'wrong' gender- I would have to go out of the room to avoid letting rip. Why on earth has she got pregnant if it matters so much and she knows the odds are 50/50? if you were betting you wouldn't put £10000 on something if you knew it was complete luck and the odds were 50/50.

I would love someone to take ICBINEG's challenge.
Those who want a specific gender - can you give us your reasons that don't contain gender stereotyping ,or it is a consumer society and 'I want' should mean 'I get'.
I very much suspect it runs into things like 'a girl will be your best friend'- despite the evidence everyday that some mother's and daughters have nothing in common.

I also very much suspect that no one will give the list.