To say why not use IVF to choose the sex of a baby?

[Poppycattlepetal]

If people could save up for the IVF required, just don't see who else's business is it if they have a boy or a girl baby, really?

It seems U that we are not legally allowed to try for this in Britain. Clearly, we'd not all choose boys. See this mother of five sons in the Indy today: www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ban-on-sex-selection-of-ivf-embryos-is-not-justified-says-ethicist-8683940.html

It is allowed in US to do this, and you don't hear of a population imbalance over there. Just what seems like an incannily high proportion of celebrities who have twins, one of each!

I do get the issues about things being very different in other countries where there can be a cultural pressure to have sons of course. And i'm only talking about methods used before pregnancy begins. And obviously this would have to be genuinely freely chosen. Just feel that as the majority in the UK doesn't share any particular preference, why not let the people who do really mind, have the choice?

[ICBINEG]

It isn't by the way...it isn't okay to judge people solely on their gender.

It really really isn't.

[comelywenchlywoo]

But I'm not arguing that IVF shouldn't be used and that those with fertility problems should accept their condition. IVF levels the playingfield and can cure a medical issue, providing the chance of a family for many. Sex-selection skews the playingfield, allowing the indulgance of a preference for the few.

Sex-selection allows individuals to make a choice. IMO an individuals right to choice does not trump all. Perhaps I will be proved to be a dinosaur and legislation will move on.
However, I think it's unfair to suggest that because my argument could be extrapolated in "x" direction it nullifies what I'm actually arguing. That's not reasoned debate.

What do you mean by "without medical support"? Do you mean that IVF isn't invasive, or that people who go to extreme lengths to obtain a particular gender of child, perhaps to the detriment of their own good or that of their children, are not necessarily suffering from a MH issue.

[comelywenchlywoo]

sorry ICBINEG I took too long writing. My post was directed to Emmeline

[MrButtercat]

Ice that is rubbish.Nobody is judging but wanting just the same as people who can afford to have 2,3 or 4 kids of the same sex in a attempt to have both.

The negative presumptions of parents who have no more dreams or hopes than any other parent is getting tedious tbf.

[comelywenchlywoo]

Emmeline If it was the latter, I take your point. The person choosing to sex-select may not be mentally unwell, but that still doesn't make it right. (see ICBINEG's post above)

[MrButtercat]

Comely using a simple procedure such as IVF doesn't have a detrimental effect on any child or parent.How ridiculous.

Parent gets what she/ he hoped for like countless of other parents every second,chid gets a sibling.Big deal!

[MaryKatharine]

I simply don't thing the 'upsetting nature's applecart' argument washes here unless you disagree with all IVF.

I do think there's a valid argument to saying that if a man's sperm is less that 5% female and even they are rubbish swimmers then maybe nature is saying he should be having boys. But it's no different from saying that those men who have a low sperm count and poor mobility for whom ICSI is their only chance of fatherhood should not have assisted conception as nature intended them to be childless.

[Solari]

I think children of opposite sex sharing rooms depends on the age of the children.

I can only speak of my own experience growing up (we all shared a room for periods of time due to necessity). I still clearly remember "experimenting" with each other, even though we were all pre-pubescent.

I wish it had been an innocent one-off (and I do believe it started innocently), but it became a favourite 'game' for my brother, which continued until he eventually raped my younger sister.

Now, it could be argued the same thing could happen with all boys sharing a room, or all girls. But I do think having the same 'bits' results in a lot less curiousity and experimenting. But admittedly, I am swayed by how badly it all turned out in my own family.

[EmmelineGoulden]

comely By without medical support I meant your inference that all people who would use sex-selection had mental health issues.

I agree with you that the right to choose does not trump all. Where there is evidence of harm to society or others, laws should curb behaviour. My point is that you haven't shown any evidence of harm. I wasn't arguing that your argument could be extrapolated in the same way as the argument against IVF. I'm saying it is pretty much the same argument - i.e. You don't think people ought to be able to do that, despite the fact it there's no evidence it would harm society or others. It's a fear based argument.

[EmmelineGoulden]

ICBINEG I think I said upthread I don't see the argument that it promotes sexism. I suspect (though I'm not sure) that if we can make society less sexist then we would see a drop in sex-selection. But I don't think banning sex-selection makes society less sexist - certainly the inability to choose the sex of a child throughout human history has not been synonymous with sex equality.

People will have sexist ideas about girls and boys whether or not they get to choose the sex. And they will treat their children in accordance with those ideas whether or not they get to chose the sex.

In the few cases where someone is so desperate for a child of a particular sex that they will keep having children they don't want until they get that sex, I would hope sex-selection would lead to fewer unwanted children and fewer children treated badly because they were not the "right" sex for their parent. In that sense it might, possibly, lead to less sexism - in that fewer children would be subjected to an abusive childhood based on their sex.

[exoticfruits]

I can't see it ever be allowed.
Of course it is very, very different from helping the childless and you wouldn't say they should just accept it.

I think that the number of bedrooms is a red herring- you will have to have lots of money to be able to afford the treatment.

A healthy, child is the greatest gift you can have- I find it extraordinary that instead of being thrilled you are moaning that it wasn't what you wanted, you will never get to buy them pretty dresses and you won't have the adult relationship that you wanted.

If I was the child that my parent had paid to give them what they thought they wanted, my act of rebellion would be to make sure that I didn't fit their imagination!

Love for your child should be unconditional- to starting by being conditional on the gender.


You really can't tell what you will get. One of my friends has a DD who just bought a new pair of jeans and went to a registry office with her DP and DD- she didn't tell anyone until afterwards and wouldn't even have a party.
Another friend had a future DIL whose mother had died- it was my friend who helped her choose a dress etc.
You really are doomed to disappointment if you have expectations. Just enjoy life with whatever you get and anything extra is a bonus.

[exoticfruits]

If children are going to have an abusive childhood because they were the 'wrong' gender the argument isn't that they should get their own way- the argument is whether they should have children at all.

[EmmelineGoulden]

It's not very, very different. People did say women should just accept infertility, several religions still do.

And while I highly doubt that most people who would use sex selection would moan or fail to love a child they had naturally that was of the opposite sex, for those that would, far better they don't have a young life they don't really want to guide and nurture. You can't stop the parents having them.

[MaryKatharine]

I do love all my children deeply but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't pleased to be raising both sons and daughters. And whilst I totally agree that they are all individual and different due to their own personalities, I would again be lying if I said that it wasn't different parenting girls from boys. Maybe neither of my girls will marry or have kids or want me to be involved but at least by having daughters there's at least a chance of that. It simply isn't true that theres just as much involvement when you're a mil or a paternal grandmother even if individual posters have individual anecdotes that contradict that.

[MrButtercat]

Love is conditional on gender.

What,are,you,on?

Billions of women hope for a sex prior to birth and love their children regardless.

My sister was hoping for 1 girl and got twin boys.She utterly adores and dotes on her boys.

I don't know a single mother who didn't have a secret hope before having their dc and I also don't know a single mother who didn't fall in love with their dc the minute try clapped their eyes on them.

There are some really silly posts on here.

[comelywenchlywoo]

I say amen to that Ma'am exoticfuits I'll bow out of the discussion now.

[MrButtercat]

Abusive childhood- what.utter.shite.

[exoticfruits]

Of course there is as much involvement- perhaps not when they are babies and have no say- it after that the DC makes their own relationship with grandparents. It is ridiculous to think that my relationship with my grandmother depends on my mother- once I am old enough to choose. You may hate your MIL but your Dd may love her to bits!

If it was the same Emmeline you would be allowed to do it- you can't in the UK and I can't see that it will change.

People can have so much choice it hits them hard to find they can't order the family if their choice.

[exoticfruits]

I will bow out too.

It is all pointless - you can't have IVF to choose gender - and reading views on here you can see why it is set to stay that way!

[MrButtercat]

I don't think it's set to stay that way,nobody has given a valid argument against it,other countries allow it,people will simply travel abroad.It is pointless not to allow it.

[MaryKatharine]

I don't dislike my mil. Neither my mother nor my mil are alive so my children do not have any grandmothers.

I do know that I was closer to my maternal GM not because I preferred her but because she was a constant presence in my former years whereas we saw my paternal GM only z few times a year. I think this is actually fairly common.

[exoticfruits]

If it happens you can say 'told you so' at that point- I am confident it won't. There is not a single argument for it except 'me, me, me, I want' or gender stereotyping. If I start any thread about special treatment for boys I am shouted down and told there is no difference - clearly there is.

Anyway will have to hide thread and not get tempted to waste more time on things you will not be allowed to do.

[exoticfruits]

I saw less of my paternal grandmother- I was much more comfortable with her.

[MrButtercat]

Soooo because you say it shouldn't happen it won't.

There has already been a review in favour of it published.

Won't be the last.

[EmmelineGoulden]

Not that I would characterise it quite as 'me, me, me, I want', but that is what drives virtually all our behaviour. We do things because we want to. We want to go on holiday, we want to have sex, we want children, we want to help others, we want to keep things for ourselves, we want to know what this or that is like...

It's hardly the most damning of insults to say people want things and act on those yearnings. And it's an odd reason for saying people shouldn't have something. As though curiosity is sinful and the desire to direct one's life is perverted.