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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say why not use IVF to choose the sex of a baby?

422 replies

Poppycattlepetal · 03/07/2013 06:26

If people could save up for the IVF required, just don't see who else's business is it if they have a boy or a girl baby, really?

It seems U that we are not legally allowed to try for this in Britain. Clearly, we'd not all choose boys. See this mother of five sons in the Indy today: www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ban-on-sex-selection-of-ivf-embryos-is-not-justified-says-ethicist-8683940.html

It is allowed in US to do this, and you don't hear of a population imbalance over there. Just what seems like an incannily high proportion of celebrities who have twins, one of each!

I do get the issues about things being very different in other countries where there can be a cultural pressure to have sons of course. And i'm only talking about methods used before pregnancy begins. And obviously this would have to be genuinely freely chosen. Just feel that as the majority in the UK doesn't share any particular preference, why not let the people who do really mind, have the choice?

OP posts:
Poppycattlepetal · 09/07/2013 10:13

Hi again,

Sorry for anoher long post from me. Thanks for all your posts which have been hugely thought provoking for me. I feel strongly that there is a problem with the UK law, because I see the option of sex selection as a matter of choice, (or at least an area that potential parents should have the freedom to negotiate on between themselves.) for me, making a choice between harmless things is harmless and people should be allowed to do it, especially where it means a lot to them.

I believe choice around how/whether/when/ to have children is crucial as these issues are so personal and individual to each person/couple/family. so the law should have the lightest possible touch here. As a woman I feel even more strongly about the choice issue because if women are going to be able to live their lives with equality to men, we need to be free to be able to decide how/whether/when to have children.

So because sex selection is available to people having IVF, I see it is as also right that couples/individuals should legally get to choose for themselves if they want to use it.

To those posters making the 'selfish' accusation, sorry but I don't see it. Who are the couple 'selfishly' denying the choice of whether they should use one particular one embryo of their embryos instead of another one? The embryologist? ..Nature? .. Chance? ...God?

And to those who would say- 'they are being selfish to the embryo who didn't get picked'.. That attitude is anti IVF which can destroy embryos inadvertantly through its processes and also can create more embryos than a couple want/need to use, so the surplus will get destroyed or donated to another couple or to research.

That attitude is also anti-contraception- are you also against the morning after pill and the coil- because they don't allow embryos to implant?

And you could also argue that that attitude is also anti-natural conception because naturally 1/3 of all embryos don't make it, apparently. So the only way to these issues is to swear yourself to celibacy or only have sex with people of your own gender, which is clearly not going to work for everyone...

The above are just arguments against having a choice in reproduction altogether, not in themselves arguments against sex selection . So I disagree with all this 'you'll get what you're given and you should be jolly well grateful' guff. It's a baby for a family we are talking about, not an overboiled Brussels sprout.

i think parliament should MIOB and allow the very few people who really care about this, what they want. i have still not read any good evidence it would cause harm (population skewed to one gender) if allowed. however, not allowing it is causing harm to people right now (distress or upset, medical trips to oher countries, financial hardship for unnecessary costs abroad, social stigma because it is a criminal act, and maybe even carrying on having children when you would really prefer to have had a smaller family).

Also it is hypocritical that the law butts in only where people need medical help to get pregnant but leaves people alone where they don't.

Sexist people are free to bring up their naturally conceived kids and limit their life choices etc but people who would like a boy or girl child (and need not be sexist people just because they feel that way) are forbidden to even attempt to have that child because they might be sexist?

This sort of legal interference is not an example of society's moral rectitude but of political convenience, because the necessity to involve medical professionals in IVF allows the anti-choice mob to get in and throw their weight around and dictate everyone else's private choices for them. So even if sec selection isn't something you would choose for yourself you should be worried by this.

OP posts:
working9while5 · 09/07/2013 10:23

I don't think it's harmless though, is it?

If boys and girls/men and women bear equal status within not only a family but wider society, then it might be.. but this is not currently the case, certainly not cross-culturally. It's only a generation since my mother in law was made to dress her brother's bed, give way to him at the table, go without food for him if there was extra and her mother before her had to give up work on marrying due to a "marriage ban".

I actually have less issue with people choosing hair and eye colour. I'd have quite liked my boys to have my dark hair. That is harmless. Gender selection? Not so much so.

MrsMigginslovespies · 09/07/2013 10:28

It's a tricky one for me, this argument. I had IVF Oct 2011 and had a healthy beautiful baby boy last August who I thank the stars for every day, he's such a gift. HOWEVER, we're hoping to try again next year for a sibling for him and I honestly don't know how I'd feel if I got the choice to pick a sex. Somehow, I feel that we've already "messed about" with nature enough (I had lots of gyne surgery due to cysts and other grimness that left me infertile at 32) so it's the only way we can have children. I think it's amazing that medicine and science can now do this. But somehow, it sits uncomfortably with me and I don't know why. I'd love a little girl. But I'd also love a little boy too for my DS. How would I feel knowing I'd rejected the other embryo for its sex? It's bad enough TBH knowing that the other eggs didn't make it in the lab, not to mention the other twin that died at 7 weeks. Nothing is straight forward and it's a roller coaster of very strong emotions for me.

Either way, I feel blessed that I brought, by whatever means, a perfect little boy into this world and if for some awful reason we can't have any more, then I'm still grateful every day for what I have. sob

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 10:49

Great post Poppy.

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 10:56

The thing is Mrs they only select the best anyway so some are getting rejected already by the embryologist purely re how they look and which grade they are- pretty much like nature.

We're talking a bunch of cells.

1 of ours didn't make it.I had 3 put in which resulted in twins.The third they wanted to re freeze but I said no.Although I had a pang of sadness the fact remains the weakest who didn't survive was no different to many embryos we all carry unwittingly that we lose to AF.They are a bunch of cells at this point however attached we may get.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 09/07/2013 11:03

I think maybe it might be OK, as most people with a preference will surely be balancing their own family ?
So probably wouldn't lead to an imbalance in society or other problems.
On the whole possibly has potential to increase overall happiness for parents and children ?
But I could be wrong !

Erebus · 09/07/2013 11:12

Yes, but those 'bunch 'of cells' can grow into a (gendered) human being, and if its gender has been selected, it could well be born into a society where gender utterly dictates whether your life will be relatively easy or unrelentingly grim.

We may say 'but that's not how it is here in the UK'- maybe not currently, but 2 or 300 years ago, even up to our grandparents' generation (and my own 80 year old mum!), gender made a massive difference- so it just might again, hey?

While it all seems 'harmless', I wonder if it's a Pandora's Box? Especially as it will be the wealthy (and by extension, 'powerful') who get to make their choices thus possibly skewing the next generation of rich and powerful?

And the thing is, those of us who have boys and girls will say that many, many preconceptions (no pun intended!) we had about 'what my boy will be like', or 'what my girl will be like' are blown out of the water the moment that girl chooses battle fatigues as fancy dress aged 3, or that boy chooses Bratz over Action Man. 'Choosing' gender seems almost like 'choosing style of child'- and when we all chorus 'well, you can't choose what sort of DC yours will grown up to be!', the question stands 'Why the need to 'choose gender' when it makes so little difference to the outcome in our -ahem- 'gender neutral' society?'

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 11:13

That is how I view it Juggling and to be honest if it stops these families from having boy after boy or girl after girl in the attempt to get the sex they want it can only be a good thing.

The fact remains people want what they want and if they care that much to do IVF they'd do the same naturally- which the planet can ill afford and really is it in the best interest of the kids they've got to keep having more of the same sex.To know you were girl number 3 when mum was trying or a boy must be quite hard.

Erebus · 09/07/2013 11:20

Maybe, MrButtercat, we shouldn't be encouraging the sort of family who sprog child after child til they get 'the right gender' at all! It's up there with 'If I scream loud enough, I'll get what I want'.

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 11:23

Erebus so people don't gender select naturally?

I think it's far grimmer having several children of a sex you did't want.Kids aren't daft. Banning gender selection won't stop people wanting a specific sex.It will still happen but worse that that children are brought into the world to disappointed parents.There are parents out there who would feel like this however unpalatable that may be or you or I.

Erebus · 09/07/2013 11:32

BUT the thing is, it's so naive to think that all will be Joy and Light if, if only my DC was the right gender- how about 'the right intelligence', 'the right temperament', 'the right height'. Maybe such parents need counselling rather than the ability to make such a simplistic choice!

What if that 'longed for' girl turns out to not be mummy's confidant and best mate? How disappointing would that be?!

PumpkinPie2013 · 09/07/2013 12:00

No, I don't agree people should be able to choose the sex of their baby purely because they have a preference.

I haven't personally had IVF but know people who have and as has been said it is a long process with no guarantee of success so resources should be for those who need it not those who wish to choose.

My auntie and uncle would have loved children but sadly were unable to have any (in the days before IVF) so they had to come to terms with this. Had they had the chance of IVF, they would have been thrilled with a baby of any sex.

I also worry what else it would lead to in the future.

In my opinion if you are able to have children you should be willing to accept that you cannot choose. All children are a blessing whether they are a boy or a girl.

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 12:27

They wouldn't be taking resources away though,they're not suggesting the NHS should pay for it.

IVF is routine and the new recently discovered techniques are going to make it even safer and more successful.

I was told I'd never have children,still doesn't mean I don't love having both sexes and can't understand those who want the same.

Erebus · 09/07/2013 12:30

I think again, all this is an example of the grey-quagmire that occurs when science out-races legislation.

Which is not to say we shouldn't have this debate, mind!

Talkinpeace · 09/07/2013 12:37

Here is why it should NEVER EVER be allowed
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio
in many societies girls are worth less than boys
especially those where dowries have to be paid to the grooms family

the sex ratio in China hit critical years ago
in India it is the cause of kidnap and trafficking
Pakistan is heading the same way

if families can select, many will have only sons.

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 12:53

China and India will do their own thing,we can't legislate for them.

We are Great Britain- a huge big meting pot containing many diff cultures.Some will want boys and some will want girls.Most imvho will want both.

itsonlysubterfuge · 09/07/2013 13:31

What if you already had a girl/boy and want another of the same to use the same toys/clothes/pram/cot/whatever assuming you decided not to buy or were given gifts gender neutral items? As a way to save money. I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this.

I agree that having a child is a gift, but I think if you've dreamt of having a particular sex all your life, I don't think you are evil or shouldn't have children. I wanted a little girl, if I would have had a little boy I would have loved him all the same, but wanting to have a little girl would not have changed, does this make me a bad person? I do not think so.

I do think if you are having IVF for medical reasons you should be able to chose the sex, but I don't think you should be able to have IVF for the sole purpose of chosing to mix and match your child.

EmmelineGoulden · 09/07/2013 13:57

Talkingpeace I see that as an argument for why there is no point in banning it. Surely if people are aborting female foetuses or abandoning or killing girl babies, it doesn't make any difference to allow sex selection with IVF. In fact allowing it may avert a worse outcome. The way to tackle such horrendous situations isn't to ban desperate actions, but to raise the status of girls and women.

Poppycattlepetal · 09/07/2013 14:23

I think the parts of India and China where there is a huge pressure to have sons provide a terrible illustration about sexism and misogyny. Many other social problems flow from this, like women not being able to participate fully or fairly in education or the workforce or in democratic institutions. Economic problems result from female exclusion from full participation in society so you often then find societies with no decent social welfare system, which then turns the production of sons into an economic necessity for parents' decent survival in old age, and creates many other problems in society besides.

Sex selection has been illegal in India and China for many years- but that hasn't stopped some people doing it because of the huge importance around having boys that has developed from the huge importance of having boys IYSWIM. This preference/necessity and the damage it does to society is the problem to be addressed. Banning it without changing the complex social problems and attitudes associated is clearly not going to succeed.

But here in the UK fortunately the same social pressures are not in play. So we shouldn't use extreme examples from overseas to limit behaviour here which would be innocuous to the overall population in our own context. Allowing sex selection is not going to unbalance the population or otherwise make any perceptible difference to most of our lives.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 09/07/2013 14:37

I think its a bad idea.

Agree with Erebus. Choosing the sex comes with the assumption that you can plan what kind of child you are going to have, and you really, really can't. I think you are better off just accepting the child that you have.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 09/07/2013 14:47

Poppy
I am with the other posters who are concerned about the message this might send as to the relative value of each gender.

Further, you cannot select gender naturally and I think IVF (with the exception of genetic disorders) should seek to recreate the results seen in nature. In other words, IVF should just be a direct replacement for part of a natural process that for some reason isn't working as it should. IVF, should not be used to control outcomes if these outcomes couldn't be controlled in nature. Otherwise, I am concerned that it will be the start of a process to control more outcomes of the conception process e.g. intelligence, perhaps embryos that show a genetic disposition to diabetes or obesity (after all surely less diabetic or overweight people is good for society?).

mindosa · 09/07/2013 15:51

Biology through the ages has ensured that there is a general balance of male vs female ratios.

I appreciate that IVF assists reproduction but it does not affect this ratio.

Why would we want to mess with this ratio and why allow it?

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 16:16

Chaz but my 2 are ICSI(sperm injected into the egg which the embryologists chose) and then frozen for a long time,they would never have happened naturally.IVF lets the sperm and egg do it themselves,it doesn't work for everybody.IVF was initially for women with dodgy tubes,not all if us have this fertility problem.

It already isn't a replacement for the natural process. Naturally I was never supposed to be a mum.

merrymouse · 09/07/2013 16:31

buttercat I don't think you were never supposed to be a mum any more than somebody born with a heart defect was never supposed to live or somebody born with a disability affecting their legs was supposed to spend the rest of their life in bed.

Although I think it's possible to live a very fulfilling life without having your own children, I think it's reasonable to expect help if you want to have children but can't.

Choosing your child's sex, not to prevent some kind of genetic defect, but just because you have a particular idea of an imaginary life with a child of a certain sex, goes beyond that.

MrButtercat · 09/07/2013 16:42

But my point is many children have been born when if left to nature or even bog standard IVF they wouldn't have.

Alarmists years back needlessly yelled Frankenstein babies etc and IVF pioneers couldn't even get funding.

At the end of the day they are just babies and consistently prove alarmists wrong.

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