To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

agree completely fuzzy

oh and I'm not hiding my origins by the way, I just take offence at someone quite rudely presuming that I am from some sort of unusual culture and then equally rudely asking me what culture I am from. As if this somehow impacts upon my argument.

It's not hard to figure out where I'm from if you can be arsed. I have a profile, a blog and everything. I still don't understand what difference it makes?

Well said thebody !

Morris equally as a Muslim woman I have never opressed anyone in the name of my religion, least of all my children neither has my family....

Wearing what you want thro choice is fine, people trying to stop the women who choose to cover from doing so are the opressors themselves.

Religion is all about controlling and having power over others, which is why it attracts abusers to it's power base.

I can only think of one faith based organisation where everyone is viewed as equal and there is no higher hierarchy.

funny that.

what isn't funny is that we stand by and allow children to be abused.

Marking my place as I have nothing intelligent to add.

FuzzyWuzzy and TheRhubarb are in particular really making me think.

A comment up thread that really resonated with me was how we must clean our own backyard before judging our neighbour's.

On the topic of the OP, if the child was forced to wear the scarf (like the toddlers mentioned) I am not comfortable with that. Dressing like mummy is a totally different, totally normal thing that all children use for development.

thebody excellent point. It's not about religion, you are right. It's about a very long-standing view that women are sexual objects.

Unfortunately, whilst the crinolines and tight girdles have gone, they have been replaced with tight little t-shirts, arse-skimming skirts, offensive slogans and other sexual clothing for girls.

Whilst boys toys sections are filled with educational toys, what are the girls toys sections filled with? Dolls, toy ovens, vaccum cleaners, etc.

But yes, thankfully we have laws that, whilst still have far to go, do afford some protection for women.

I thought we where discussing the UK - but if other countries don't have the same laws and don't offer women the same protection laughable in the UK to be honest) what are you doing about it?

As a politically active feminist I support women in those countries campaigning for change and organisations that advocate for change

It doesn't get away from the idea that Islam is a) not universally oppressive b) not the only oppressive religion c) most oppression done in the name of Islam is bog standard domestic violence and women hating - which exists healthy out side of Islamic families in the UK

2 women a week die at the hand of violent partners and plenty of white, Christian children are forced to wear and do things they don't want to by abusive fathers (and Mother's)

I think it's a smoke screen that a) allows people to be casually racists b) makes people feel they are some how immune from such oppression - so it's a win win for white oppressive males everywhere!

gordy I love you.

In instances of DV the woman is always blamed, why didn't she walk away, why didnt she leave, why didnt she tell anyone.

Then you have the opposite, there is a thread on here started by a very brave woman who's STBXH kicked in the chest. (That could of killed her!!!) The amount of comments she's gotten from family as well as 'friends' about how it wasn't a big deal, the extreme pressure to drop the charges from her own mother etc.

I'm probably wording this poorly, but how is that any different to a Muslim woman (pretending she was in the exact same scenario and in the UK) being told to put up and shut up?

That's not about religion, it's culture surely?

Life can be a lose-lose situation, which is why we all must continue the good fight.

ATM my hero is Braveheart in India. They're saying this could be the change for India - Either forwards or backwards.

Thank you THERhubarb

Haven't read through whole thread but had to post. The reason you may be seeing a growing trend op may be due to the change in demographics of our population. I know that where I live there has been an increase in the number of Somalian people, and I see a lot of little Somalian girls who wear it. Its an outward feature of faith.. I see nothing wrong with that. We can't tell whether it is imposes on them or if the little girls like dressing like mummy and other femaile relatives. I am a Muslim. My dd is 4 and doesn't wear the hijab outdoors but when I sit down to pray, she voluntarily wears her scarf and sits next to me. She enjoys wearing it and it's quality time together.

yyyy, it IS about culture. Not everyone who voices the opinion that rape victims had it coming or that girls are capable of seducing teachers are religious. I think religion just embraced a misogynisitic culture that already existed.

Gordy no one is saying the west has the answers on here. That's absolutely not the point and I do hope that discussion about women's suffer age can be discussed from any religion or culture without being seen as racist that's lazy thinking and closing doors to debate.

Rhubarb my dds love wearing arse skimming skirts but I am not making them. It's their choice as are leggings and jumpers in the winter.

Their father and brothers don't tell them his to dress?

You see girls dressed every way in some societies but in others they all dress the same.

Surely a whole nation of women would not deep down choose to wear head to tie black with slits for eyes?

Really ?

Fuzzy you said yourself in your other posts that nobody in your circle is forced to wear the niqab, hijab etc but that your sister is not allowed to wear the niqab on instruction on her husband. Don't you see any contradiction here. For a grown married woman in an equal marriage why should something like clothing be dictated to by a husband

My whole argument has been about freedom of choice be it if you want to wear it or not and whether there is repurcussions if you choose to go against the wishes of your family or community.

I'm not so ignorant or dumb to believe that you are incapable of doing your job because of a headscarf or your DC cant ride a bike, that is your extrapolation, not mine

Why if the wearing of the niqab, hijab is down to free choice as you seem to be asserting and not something dictated in your religion by men, why is your own sister not allowed to do as she chooses. Here in the UK Muslim women are free to wear whatever covering they like, the state sees no reason yet to involve itself in these affairs, giving an individual state sanctioned FREE choice on this matter.

If in Saudi or anywhere else, it is indeed free choice then why would the Saudi state need to legislate for these matters on something as basic as what you choose to wear. If you are given autonomy in these matters as you keep saying Muslim woman have and it's not something dictated by men, surely it's moot for these countries to need to then legislate for woman to be covered up in public.

The OP is one massive assumption.

Today one little girl turned up at school in a headscarf, which was very unusual (by the OP's own admission).

OP didn't bother asking the child or the mother why or wherefore just came along to lament the opression of babies by mozlems, on MN.

Muslim women are strong and clever and courageous, they are fighting for their rights all over the world and some do it whilst choosing to cover themsleves.

The people who are so upset at these poor opressed women inthe UK, would have these women uncover against their wishes because of course women who cover are too stupid to make their own decision.

I was told by a poster, that I couldn't make an informed decision to cover myself because I choose to cover, its indoctrinated in me apparently (never mind that nobody else in my family covers) so I should not be allowed to wear what I want (like the poster could), the conclusion here is that Muslim women should have fewer rights and freedoms than non muslim women if they choose to cover apparently.

I personally don't like seeing men with moobs walking around topless during summer, I dont like seeing women walking around with their bums exposed to the world in light coloured knickers whilst wearing dark coloured legggins and short tops.
I accept this as a personal informed choice however and avert my gaze in order not to lose my lunch.

I would therefore accept as given that women walking around wearing head scarves are doing so from choice unless they say otherwise.

In countries where women are being opressed I campagin for them and cheer them on to go out and fight to gain their rights. I can't personally do anything more for the women in Afghanistan and Saudi and everywhere else.

What exactly would banning women wearing headscarves in england be doing for the women in the above countries? Except opressing the women here? How does that help any woman?

YY
Many of the societies where religion is used to oppress women were already patriachal societies. Men are using religion to reinforce the privileged position they already hold i.e. its not me who says you can't ... its God and you can't argue with God.

Young Sikh boys wear turbans, Jewish boys scull caps.. Seen it since I was a kid... I don't see the difference. Just wonder if it is regarded in the same way.. I don't see why it shouldnt be.

Baking, my sister has for the time being not taken an issue with it, she told her husand she wanted ot wear a veil he said he didn't want her too, as far as I knw that wa the extent of the dicussion (for now, I dont know how serious she is as she doens't wear anything covering and is very fashionable), there are many women on MN who have accepted far worse behaviour from their partners and non of them are muslim.

Ex wanted me to stop wearing my headscarf, I refused.

YANBU

I feel sad. I have kind of learned not to be sad about a scarf over hair but anything more of a cover up and it does make me feel very sad. It's an instant emotional response.

baking someone further down posted that a child was weairng a headscarf and it was hinering her riding her bike as she had to stop to adjust her headscarf.

'I have no problem with people wearing religious dress when they have made an informed choice that is what they want. A 5 year old cant do that'

I agree with this. Where I used to live all the little jewish boys (I am jewish) had to wear the kippurs and peyos (the sidelocks). No way could they have made an informed choice about religion at 2/3/5. The girls were also forced to dress in a certain way and they were kept very sheltered.
you see it in documentaries about the Amish communities. Those poor kids dont even get a decent education that would allow them to function well outside should they choose to leave. Extreme religious choices forced on kids have a lot to answer for.

SpecialAgent, I suffered from domestic violence, when I went to get my islamic divorce we told the scholar the grounds for divorce and he without question gave me the divorce. There was no trying to condone it or suggest anything but leaving and being safe.

Here in the UK, I went thro a hearing to prove the DV, altho ex had two cautions for it and friends had seen bruises etc I was still forced to give evidence and repeatedly be told that I was a liar and the whole why didnt I leave, I was clever and educated if it was that bad why did I stay.
Even after proving all counts of DV against me and the judge accepting that my children had been present for at least some of it, and that my eldest had been subject to at least one count of direct abuse by her father, ex was still allowed contact with the children, who were (and still are) terrified of him.

I saw very similar posts regarding Nigella Lawson recently, some on here.

And it really upset me.

twisty that is not the equivalent of wearing a headscarf though

A girl stopped whilst riding her bike, to adjust her headscarf. I see hundreds of girls ever da in eascarves. Non of them appear anymore encumbered by them, than by any other item of clothing. Just like stopping to tie your shoe laces

Fair enough, if you object to childrn/people wearing headcarves But dont try and turn it in to something isnt

Sae withitamin deficiency. Peoplewith darker/black skin are more likely to suffer Vitain D deficiency. But its a it of an epidemic in Europe rig now, for everyone because we dont spend enough time outdoors/have crap summers/wear sun screen. There is no link to burqa wearing

Of course there's a link to burqa wearing Boomba - it's logical and well proven.