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AIBU?

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Original poster

To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

908 replies

INeedSomeSun · 02/07/2013 09:44

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

OP posts:
THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 16:24

That is true thebody, luckily we do have human rights in this country but make no mistake about it, there are men out there who would happily oppress women and actually do believe that our sole duty is to please them sexually, have their babies and be a house slave.

fuzzywuzzy · 02/07/2013 16:25

Thebody women are fighting for their rights in Pakistand and Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, they arent taking it lying down they are brave and courageous and amazing.

THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 16:30

Yup, look at Malala Yousufzai

Northernlurker · 02/07/2013 16:41

I am an actively practicing Christian. I do not accept that my faith requires me to be oppressed nor do I accept others being oppressed although I do think that regrettably that is how some Christians approach the faith. I don't think the OP is being unreasonable and I don't think this child should be wearing this type of clothing. Come to that I don't think any adult should have to either but the religion demands it.

Religion and faith are seperate things.

ThePurpleCarrot · 02/07/2013 16:43

THERudebard - well congratulations "for being fairly well known on mumsnet". Was that for being rude?

THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 16:48

No ThePurpleCarrot I don't give two hoots about your rudeness and intrusion, I am simply stating that you will have to ask someone else as I do not believe that my culture or race is any of your business Smile

Northerlurker I am sure many Islamic men and women would say the same. Unfortunately we only tend to hear about extremist Islamists and not ordinary Islamists who don't accept that their faith gives them the right to oppress anyone either.

I do blame the media for only showing us one side of Islam. 20 years ago you could be forgiven for thinking that every Irish catholic had links to the IRA. Again it's because everytime Irish catholics were featured on the news it involved some act of terrorism. Most were reasonable, law-abiding people who didn't condone acts of violence and still don't.

Moominsarehippos · 02/07/2013 16:49

Coming from 1953 perhaps...

quoteunquote · 02/07/2013 16:50

It's child abuse and shame on our society allowing it to happen.

I do not care if someone religious sensibilities are offend, I care not what an adult decides to do to themselves, but when they start abusing children or others because of their personal beliefs then we should stand up to them, and not allow it.

MorrisZapp · 02/07/2013 16:50

Rhubarb, speaking for myself I am an atheist, and one of my biggest gripes with organised religion of any stripe is the shit way they treat women. I detest the practices you mention in the Catholic Church.

However, I don't think other religious practices are relevant here. There are numerous threads on MN about the Catholic Church, they get long and very heated. I know that many Catholic MNers feel their religion is unfairly targeted.

But this thread is about the practice of religious covering on women and girls, so why not stick to discussing that, and take your grievances about Catholicism to a relevant thread.

MorrisZapp · 02/07/2013 16:52

And I agree with Northern. I don't like seeing grown women covered up either.

LastTangoInDevonshire · 02/07/2013 16:53

I am trying to show that the UK, that western culture was not that much different.

WAS not, not IS not. There's a difference.

The catholic church has lost its hold on women in the main.

Islam is tightening its grip on women.

THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 16:57

MorrisZapp I do believe it is relevant and my grievances are from experience. Please do not dictate to me what I can and cannot post about, you are not my oppressor Wink

I am comparing the Muslim faith to the catholic faith because the two have similarities, certainly when it comes to the oppression of women. I am also trying to discover why certain catholic practices are now hardly spoken of yet as a society we act as though we are all superior and would never and have never oppressed women in the name of religion.

This thread also spoke about children being indoctinated into their parents religion, again catholicism is relevant as many catholic schools still discriminate against non-catholics today and indoctrination is still rife.

So why make out that the Islamic religion and its practices are far removed from our own when they are not?

Boomba · 02/07/2013 16:59

I know a lot of kids who wear headscarves. It doesn't restrict them in anyway. If they get too hot, them they take them off. It's more a fashion thing at that age.

fuzzywuzzy · 02/07/2013 17:01

It doesnt matter what you like seeing or not, so long as the person covering themselves is doing so out of choice then its frankly nobody's business. Just as women who want to flaunt it can too if they so wish.

I've never seen or heard of tiny children being forced into covering, kids copy their parents that I can understand.

The OP has made some masisve assupmtions. it's the first time she's seen this child in a head scarf, she has asusmed fomr this that her parents are forcing her ot wear a head scarf and now she wont be able to join in PE lessons, all form a seeign the hcild for a few minutesw.

How many five year olds actually realistically go along with thier parents sartrial wishes if it clashes with their own?

And PE is not optional surely? NEver midn that we have no idea if the chidl will stop doing PE because of her parents relgiious sensibilities!

gordyslovesheep · 02/07/2013 17:02

good lord - anyone that thinks 'western' culture is less is less misogynistic needs to open their eyes

Wearing a head scarf may be the child's choice - but it's equally oppressive and damaging to deny women a choice either way

Domestic violence is rife in ALL sectors of society - the woman killed at the weekend by her partner was not Asian or Muslim - lets get away from the idea that Islam equalsl oppression more than bog standard patriarchy and woman hating in general does

THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 17:02

The thread started off with criticism and pity for a child who was presumed to have the headscarf forced on her at school.

I am pointing out that her parents have chosen to send her to a mixed faith school, something many catholic children do not have the luxury of. There was a view on the thread that the child was indoctrinated by her parents, so are many catholic children.

I do not condone the wearing of anything which oppresses women but I can see the hyprocrisy of a society which criticises women for being oppressed in the UK by having to wear a hijab or burkha whilst that society encourages its own girls to become sexualised at a very young age and accuses teenage girls of seducing their teachers.

It's so easy to criticise someone else's culture and faith and feel quite smug and superior in doing so, but the western culture is not as free or democratic as one might think and I do believe that we are blind to many acts of oppression against women that occur everyday.

Such as being told to shut up and leave the thread. Wink

MorrisZapp · 02/07/2013 17:03

I've never oppressed anybody in the name of religion. Neither has anybody in my family. The Magdalen laundries were in Ireland, not Scotland. I don't agree that appalling treatment of women by other religions is not spoken about.

But I'm not sure what you think we should be saying right now about practices within the Catholic Church (a minority religion in this country) forty years ago? Little girls in religious covering is happening today, and is surely a matter for more urgent debate?

THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 17:06

Who mentioned Scotland?

Islam is also a minority religion in this country. Indoctrination of children is happening today in the UK. The headscarf is an external symbol, the more dangerous symbols are the ones you don't see, such as the psychological damage done to children.

MorrisZapp · 02/07/2013 17:07

I think you're picking and choosing, rhubarb. We don't think anything 'as a society'. Some people have outdated, sexist views. We know this. There are loads of threads about sexism and oppression on here, not just within FWR.

I think it's classic web forum posturing to say 'you can't say x is bad, because Y is also bad'. Reasonable people can recognise that both are bad.

Would you have preferred it if the OP had said she was saddened by the girl in a niqab but other religious oppressors exist?

Boomba · 02/07/2013 17:07

I agree with rhubarb

The hijab is not a matter for urgent debate
FGM is

LastTangoInDevonshire · 02/07/2013 17:08

THERhubarb - stop protesting so much. You sound as though you are trying to justify your beliefs all the time.

MorrisZapp · 02/07/2013 17:09

I mentioned Scotland, because it's where I live. Unlike you, I do not keep my nationality or culture secret. I'm a Scottish atheist with Protestant forebears. I feel no need to apologise for the transgressions of my culture.

fuzzywuzzy · 02/07/2013 17:14

LastTango, of course the West opresses women, its more insiduous and not so brazen about it but they do.

Women who are raped are still blamed for it.
I've been shocked and disgusted at posts on here where other women have posted things like well what was she doing out at that time, why was she so drunk, why did she behave like that etc etc etc

Girls and women are objectified constantly, porn is normalised in the media and anyone who doesn't like it or approved is derided.

In instances of DV the woman is always blamed, why didn't she walk away, why didnt she leave, why didnt she tell anyone.

There's lots. England and the west is not as liberated and free at all, just better at hiding it.

THERhubarb · 02/07/2013 17:15

I'm glad you are from Scotland Morris, but where you come from is not relevant to the points you make.

By all means discuss the hijab and Muslim girls, but it's worth bearing in mind always that our culture is far from perfect.

I would much prefer to talk about the general misogynistic attitude which prevails in all cultures and to actively DO something about it than to single out one little Muslim girl for criticism. Especially one which we know nothing about. But if you want to use that little girl as justification for your own criticisms of her religion then go ahead.

thebody · 02/07/2013 17:18

LastTango, excellent point.

The Catholic Church and religion in general is loosing its grip on women and society in general in the west

Islam is tightening its grip.

Yes domestic violence, rape exists here but the law is in place to protect women or deal with the aftermath.

Not so in countries where women are treated as second class citizens.

Look at the original op. I think it was barbaric to dress little girls in crinolines and tight girdles, we have moved ion and don't do it now.

We had our suffragette struggle, its not a perfect society, where is? But I am glad me and dds live here and not a country that shoots girls for going to school or a culture that tells me my body is so inflaming/ sexual that I must swathe myself and dds in ugly black hot material.

Sorry it's not about religion it's about control and ownership.