To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

true when we was all younger we never saw hijabs but in the last few years muslim woman seem to be wearing it alot.
something must have changed

Crumbles So you are suggesting that because some men somwhere who oppress women (as I do not know any on a personal basis) and make them cover, is somehow MY fault because I choose to dress the way I want to dress. No I am failing to see the connection here unfortunately. Even IF I took your wonderful advice and rebelled against my religion, my non-oppressive husband and my own desire to wear a hijab, do you think any of these 'oppressors' like in the Afghanistan example you cited, give a shiny shite what other women are doing globally. In fact I imagine they in their warped minds would consider the Ummah (Muslim world) becoming corrupt and come down even stricter on their wives and sisters.

The 'scrap of cloth' quote you used was by Moomin iirc, who btw probably would not claim to be a 'defender of covering women' but a defender of choice. If you had cared to read the previous posts properly we have cited many reasons why women choose to wear a hijab, but how does my intentions make any difference to you anyway, or any other person for that matter hijab-wearing or not? I have come to the conclusion despite numerous attempts justifying why I wear a hijab, to many it will still remain an oppression or a scrap of cloth. Yet if I call it a scrap of cloth or 'just a scarf' I am in the wrong.

"I do not know any on a personal basis" - what point are you trying to make here Hoppin? Can you tell me please?

"Some men somewhere oppress women" The way you phrase this seeks to belittle it and minimise its importance. Did you intend to do this? Do you think it's a small, unimportant problem, carried out by just "some men" a long way away? Can you confirm that you don't?

"I am failing to see the connection here unfortunately" This is what I've pointed out - a complete disconnect.

It is not a rebelling against religion - you have chosen one interpretation, yes it's the most common interpretation but it is one. And yes, what you would be rebelling against is your own desire.

I'm sure that not only do many Muslim men give a shiny shite what women wear, they are positively pleased and delighted that so many free, western-educated women are happy to adopt a symbol of their oppression of other, less fortunate women.

The "scrap of cloth" reference has come in many different forms. The picture of the Queen, the reference to "excess fabric", the reference to other young girls wearing their mothers' clothes, other comments that amount to, it's only a headscarf, it's only a long skirt, it's only copying mum, what does it matter. These comments and dismissals have been made, and often on this thread. You can check. Often the posters then switch from saying "it's a scrap of cloth", and these other dismissive comments, to saying it's religious discrimination to criticise it. Well, not if it's just a scrap of cloth and nothing to do with religion, it isn't.

The intentions make no difference at all. Covering is not a requirement, it's a choice. You are, after all, not oppressed. You wear it, for whatever reason, out of choice. Which is alright, of course, for you, but in making that choice you validate and normalise the non-choice of many other women. And not just "some women, somewhere" - maybe the woman next door. How do you know?

Unless of course you choose to believe that because you, personally don't know any they simply don't exist.

The 'scrap of cloth' comment comes from a one member of the family against an anti western (woman) rant by Ian-Paisly-in-a-Headscarf (as I call her) - aimed at me really. He asked her if a scrap of cloth alone actually made her a better person than anyone else. I suppose she has been educated to believe the whole sluts and harlots line (not very sisterly) and how we are all bla bla bla over here. She's an idiot though . The rest of the family are wonderful though, and not like this at all.

I do defend choice btw, but am realistic to know that in the practise choice isn't always black and white. I may choose not to cover but be unable to do this due to pressure/nagging/threats/discrimination... family, friends, neighbours, employers, people in the street. I may choose to cover and suffer the same.

A woman has choices regarding her body. I defend choice - even though I may not agree or it may not be something that I would/wouldn't do.

My opinion is that covering up makes sense where the sun is hot, dry winds blow, people live a nomadic life and suncream isn't available. Add to that wars and women taken as spoils of war, then yes, it makes perfect sense. The Koran was written as a time when the world was very very different. Part of what is in there is perfect sensible 'house keeping'. Surely God wants us to take care of our bodies as well as our souls (and many christians take this to be the 'word' too).

It like your mum saying 'put your coat on' when you are little. Now over time, culture and interpretation 'covering up' has become something else. That's why there is no one style of dress, and some choice.

I don't like to see little girls covered in drab cloth. Likewise, first communion dresses like bridal gowns sits slightly uneasy with me too. I don't like to see kids dressed as 'mini mummy' and I don't care where they come from.

"its just a headscarf."

"many little girls want to look like their mummies"
"There are lots of girls in my primary school who wear hijabs, some of whom are in nursery or reception..... Most children copy what their parents do"
"My dd's love wearing headscarves ..A headscarf has never stopped anyone form doing anything"
"just excess fabric"
that link to the picture of the queen
and others minimising and dismissing - not just one

I am telling you exactly that I really dont know of any muslim women on a personal level who are forced to cover up. Obviously that does not mean the problem doesnt exist, and no I am not belittling the problem nor am I minimising its importance but given the choice I would not take my own rights away because someone somewhere (yes as I said I dont know them personally) is being forced to dress a certain way. Removing my hijab really would not make a single difference to them as I mentioned in my previous post and most likely worsen their situation. Women are equally being forced to remove the hijab, a few posters have mentioned family members are not being given the choice of dress, is that ok in your opinion and do you believe non-hijab wearing women should take a stand by wearing it as they are validating and normalizing this non-choice?

You say intentions dont make any difference at all then why make an issue if a woman wears hijab and says its 'just a scarf' even if her intentions are religion based. I believe the posters who wear hijab (or not) who say its just a scarf, may wear it for whatever reason but to an onlooker it usually is that - just a scarf. The intentions may not make a difference to them, rather like they dont to you.

"Removing my hijab really would not make a single difference to them"

Yes, it would. If everyone woman who was not oppressed and who had a choice, chose not to cover it would make an enormous difference to those women who are forced to cover up. That forcing, that oppression, would no longer be hidden and defended but open and visible and an issue of shame.

This is a deep, long term impact which only Muslim women can have and a difference that only Muslim women can make. Who else can make such a difference? Me? People like me? Ridiculous idea. The acusation of "colonial feminism" would fly in my direction. It's up to free, choosing, non-oppressed women to help. I can't make you - I wouldn't force you. But I can criticise when it doesn't happen.

Are you likely to interact with women who are in a situation where they are forced/bullied/shamed into covering? I don't see any women who fit the 'stereotype'. I see women out shopping, yelling at their kids, joking with their husbands, eating ice creams, hailing cabs, having tea with other women, waiting at the schoolgates complaining about the state of the kids PE kits...

I assume such a woman would also be encouraged not to mix outside a specific circle (family, culture, community). That worries me - like women who are married to bullies and thugs who dominate and shrink their world. They are pretty invisible and put on a 'face' outside. Or maybe these are the teenage girls who want to wear short skirts or jeans but are bullied or threatened by fathers, mothers and brothers (ok sometimes sisters too). I do realise this isn't just a muslim issue.

I agree with Moominsarehippos on this, we should defend women's choice but we must acknowledge that choices are not made in a vacuum and they are open to criticism.

I like the strict separation of church and state in France. That does not mean France is a non racist idyll, but I do think that we should not have any church leaders with places by right in our governing bodies in a modern democracy (like the bishops in the Lords).

I do not like to see adult women covered, let alone children. I will defend any woman's right to wear what she wants, but I defend my right to say that for me it is a symbol of religious hatred and fear of the female body and the male desire to control and manage female sexuality.

I suppose my position is: I know women in a country where they are forced to cover. It's the law and there are moral police. Every so and often (usually when there is something happening in the country and the gvt clamps down to give people something else to worry about) the spotty youths in uniform get more active. All but Ian Paisly don't agree and they do not cover when abroad. A whole generation of the family has emigrated.

I live in London in an area of v rich and v poor (I'm a minority - neither one nor the other), all sorts really. I see a wide gap between the rich arab women - with their nod to covering up (a bright silk scarf over their hair), alongside their prada and gucci and lots of jewellery and makeup, and their maids (usually malaysian wearing baggy trousers and tunics and tight headscarf) and the poorer (often) n african muslim women/white women married to n african men who cover up to a higher extent. The women with face coverings are over for the holidays.

You just can't make generalisations as to who is 'the most muslim of all'. So much variation in clothing.

Crumbled its getting a bit tedious having to repeat myself, I understand there are women who are forced to cover but equally there are women whose rights to cover up are taken away, both are oppressed and both need to be highlighted but you are only willing to address one and not the other. You haven't answered my question either in previous post. If we all took off our hijabs to help one group of women what about the other? Or does their struggle for choice not matter?
Again I really cannot see how it would help. I am pretty certain in saying it would only make matters worse for the oppressed women as these men are so rigid in their views, even if the whole world turned against them. Most, and I am generalizing, of the men tend to be illiterate and/or from poor developing countries - you seem to believe it is the only way, perhaps educating may make a difference, but for you to suggest giving up my rights to dress the way I choose to, as well as all the covered women who choose to dress that way, I find it pretty shocking to be honest.

I don't defend any woman's 'choice' to cover herself up, and never will. Not do I respect it.

I would only consider a token respect to such a 'choice' if and when (i.e. never) men make the same 'choice' to gad about town, winter and summer, covered up in the same manner.

Funnily enough they don't, and I venture to say, never will. So as long as women are making 'choices' which are patently not choices, I won't respect it. And I don't blame the women for a minute. I blame the insidious mysoginst culture in which such 'choices' flourish.

Exactly Moomin, there is no 'one size fits all' culture, upbringing, education, experiences etc make a lot of difference in a person's lifestyle choices, Muslim or not.
It really is a complicated issue, some may dislike seeing covered up women, others may dislike seeing hardly-anything-there women, we can express our dislike appropriately, but then should not be offended if told to mind my own. To force somebody to dress a certain way is wrong, as is taking their rights away while dressing it up as liberation.

Dondraper thanks for that.

"I don't see any women who fit the 'stereotype'."
So they don't exist? How many more people are going to hint at this?

"If we all took off our hijabs to help one group of women what about the other? "

It's a sacrifice that free, non-oppressed women should be prepared to make. There is nothing wrong with the England flag or the Union flag. But for about 20 years people who feel loyal and patriotic would never have flown it or displayed it because of its association with thuggery and racism. They chose not to, even if they wanted to. It was a choice, because people didn't want to be associated with that and didn't want to promote that.

It might make men more rigid in their view and I certainly agree it seems to engender a sense of rebellion among covering women as well. But it takes time. It took a long time for women in western societies to start throwing off the bonds of inequality and we are still working at it. But it's a start to make that oppression visible, to NOT validate it, to NOT promote it, to not proclaim to the world your support of gender inequality.

I would make exactly the same criticism of Catholic women who proclaim loudly and promote the doctrine on contraception, without thinking that there are many women in the world oppressed and tortured by that doctrine. Exactly the same.

I've just seen a fully covered seven/eight year old. I think it's appalling.

" I will defend any woman's right to wear what she wants, but I defend my right to say that for me it is a symbol of religious hatred and fear of the female body and the male desire to control and manage female sexuality."

Exactly Ithaca. I wouldn't force a ban. We live in a free country. But I will criticise the choice.

Yes, I will criticise the 'choice' as well.

Happy to have the opportunity to do so on this thread.

Crumbled - saying "because I think it does" is not proof or evidence.

I reject your criticism. It is meaningless to me, not least because you have such little understanding of the situations and circumstances you claim to rail against.

I reject the power dynamic you are trying to impose on this coversation, where you either complain we are not answering you questions and then criticising us when we do.

You are oh so affronted at being accused of colonial feminism, yet you've not bothered to look in to what it really means and instead are using it as yet another stick to beat us with.

You are not arguing in good faith.

To you your way, to me mine.

No, not evidence, just like this from hoppin isn't evidence.
"Again I really cannot see how it would help. I am pretty certain in saying it would only make matters worse"
They are opinions, and we are both free to voice them. I have however, posted quite a lot of links to support my point, if you could choose to read them, and pointed out quite a lot of self-contradiction in the opposing point of view.
I am not trying to impose any power dynamic - and I resent that, because it shows how would like criticism not to be voiced at all. I am talking to you as an equal, a non-oppressed woman able to make choices. I certainly am arguing in good faith and I've been entirely consistent and not flip-flopped between different points of view depending on whether it suited my argument at the time. Unlike some.

And affronted at being accused of colonial feminism? Not at all. I simply point out the contradiction - people make accusations of colonial feminism then say I should listen to women to bring them into enlightenment, or take a stand, or criticise the society. Make your mind up. An accusation of colonial feminism seems to mean "shut up" for some people.

And as I pointed out earlier - in this country it's not colonial feminism. It's feminism.

In all my 39 years on this planet, I'm yet to hear an argument - let alone a convincing one - as to why men don't 'choose' to cover themselves up.

Maybe this is the thread for it.

Anyone?

I'm happy to revise my position on this, on the basis of it.

So my DP's Grandmother who always wears a scarf out (as an English going back centuries Christian woman) is validating oppression in Afghanistan by doing so? For doing what all Christian women her age did at my age to keep a neat appearance?

People with cancer and alopecia who choose scarfs over wigs are validating oppression? My BIL has even wore one due to how sensitive his scalp got after multiple radiation treatments.

My Romani friend who wears a diklah, she's validating oppression?

I, a secular woman with no connection to any religion, who wears a cloth cap out because I like having long hair but find it frizzes at the slightest things so keeping it neat in Britain's weather is too much of a faff, I'm validating oppression? I'm validating oppression by thinking I have the right to do with my hair what I please and I have the right to decide who sees that part of my body?

Head scarves and head coverings have global backgrounds, are worn for religious reasons, medical reasons, cultural reasons, personal reasons, fashion reasons. Trying to pigeonhole all who wear one as some Western idea of "covered women" is ridiculous and blaming us as the root of oppression even more so. This divisiveness does nothing, certain doesn't tackle the root causes of oppression. Tackling perceived symptoms rather than causes, feeling superior while doing nothing to give the oppressed real resources to do anything.

I come from a culture whose traditional clothes were forcefully taken away to teach us how to be proper "civilized" people, to "kill the savage to save the man". People were killed over it - White settlers starved, raped, and killed people because our cultural items weren't right. It was imperialistic BS then and it's the same now. We don't need to be saved from our clothes, we need real resources that are denied us. Shaming and blaming others doesn't uplift, it just creates more division.

It is ridiculous to compare burkha wearers with people who compensate for hair loss because of chemotherapy, and older women who wear headscarves to keep their heads warm. It just invalidates your entire post.

why men don't 'choose' to cover themselves up

I think you do know why. It's simply because, unlike women in certain societies, men are not brought up to think they must cover up. And they are not mistreated if they don't conform.

In those societies the men have always been in control and they want to stay in control. They do that in a variety of ways including requiring the faces to be covered, forced marriage, physical abuse, not permitting them to drive, etc etc.