To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

Please do ask muslim women in real life why they cover, most would be happy to talk to you about it.

As for what are we trying to prove, why does our dress mean we are trying to prove something?

my kids wear hijab sometimes because they want to. so what? my 4 year old says she wants to wear hijab because she wants to be pretty. so sometimes she wears it.

cote. your intepretation is different to ahl sunna wa jammaat.

i dont know muslim women who are forced to wear hijab, i do have a friend whose husband wont walk down the road next to her wearing hijab, and other friends whose families have a fit and say who will marry you with hijab etc, and these anti hijab experiences are much more common ime.

As for women in other countries, that is nonsensical. shall we say we shouldnt do things that other people are forced to do?

the majority of british muslims come from pakistan and the majority of women in pakistan dont cover.

nailak

quoting you: Please do ask muslim women in real life why they cover, most would be happy to talk to you about it.

A point well made.

I really don't care too much about "what Islam says" about covering. It seems to me that there are probably as many opinions as there are Muslims. The better question is what reasons Muslims actually hold for covering, regardless whether those reasons can be considered orthodox Islam (and I know Muslims reasonably differ on such points, just as people of all religions do).

Another separate point relating to the rather arid discussion of "oppression". I doubt there is a single person on the planet, male or female, who hasn't been oppressed in some way or other at some point. Surely that is obvious. What that has to do with the rights or wrongs of wearing hijab is unclear.

Why do women choose to wear hijab? Interesting question.

Some believe it to be part of their modesty, they choose to cover their hair the same way they (and vast majority of the women worldwide) would not leave the house bare chested. Who makes the rules what ought to be publicly displayed, and what ought to be covered? A group of women somewhere remote in the world may hold the belief covering the chest is oppressive for women and hold a burning desire to 'free' these poor women worldwide, in all seriousness how is it anybody else's place to decide what 'level of modesty' another woman chooses for herself, and what is acceptable for her and her lifestyle?

A woman may choose to cover her hair if she believes its a religious requirement from God. The relationship between her and her God is no other man or woman's business. If she is happy and chooses to live her life according to her religious beliefs, and she is causing nobody else harm by her headscarf/level of covering, then this is hardly the free tolerant society we all believe then is it, if she is ridiculed and criticized by her choice.

She may cover her hair to make a political statement. Who knows, I have yet to come across such a person but I do know of women in places like France who are more determined than ever not to have their rights to wear what they choose taken away. It may be anger, rebellion or it may be loyalty towards their covered sisters who they feel are being wronged.

Some may wear a headscarf simply when having a bad hair day

Women may choose to cover themselves for a hundred reasons and I haven't even covered the cultural aspect, they are not all clones nor are we mind readers to know why somebody may choose to wear it. It may be an eyesore for some in the western world seeing covered women, but is personal dislike a reason to take away somebody's rights? Me personally? I come under the second category, I accept that God wants me to cover my hair and there is wisdom behind His decision, just as he wants my DH to have a beard. I dont expect a non-muslim or non practicing muslim to understand this level of submission to God, I understand that. But would hope they can respect my views and choices in life as I do theirs.

I do know women forced to cover - not by family or friends but by the state. The moral police are out and about (not all the time though, so you never know) and will tell you to hide a curl of hair. Now that's oppression. Being bullied by a spotty kid old enough to be your son.

Economy going to pot? Never mind, as long as the women cover up, they have more to worry about. This is, of course power and the politics of opression and not not not religion. I do not recognise this from what I know of Islam. Maybe that's why I am so pro-choice. When you know people who have none, its more emotional.

i know women who are forced not to wear hijab - my sister for one! Her husband wont walk around with her in hijab as he prefers the trophy wife - much as he will not admit that.

We all also know of countries - muslim and non-muslim ones - that will not allow hijab in institutions. That is also oppression.

Gosh - I do know what hadith and sunnah mean/are.

The point I am making that it is patently wrong to say that the burqa is mandated in the Quran (because it has no mention at all of covering the face), and that hijab/headscarf is* in the Quran but imho still arguable - it says "cover your bosom with your 'covering'" which at the time people wore over their heads, but the emphasis seems to be on the bosom, not on the hair.

This was a reply to Rhubarb saying hijab and burqa were what Quran told Muslims to do. That statement is 100% wrong re burqa, and not entirely clear for the hijab which I presume is the reason why so many Muslim women don't wear headscarves.

Can I just point out that there is not one 'Muslim community' in Britain, there are many.

Some are immigrants, some are the children of immigrants. Some are converts. Some have brown skin, white skin, black skin and all other shades.

Amongst the immigrant population you have people from the former Yugoslavia, Africa, Asia, the middle east... who have very different cultural norms.

If you live in a part of Britain such as East Lancashire where the vast majority of Muslims are of Pakistani or Bangladeshi descent you may well assume some cultural practices are 'Muslim' when in fact they have to do with culture.

A Bosnian Muslim woman of a certain age will wear a headscarf that is virtually identical to that worn by a Russian Orthodox Christian of the same age.

My Jordanian friend only covers her head in the mosque, my Malaysian friend wears Hijab as do her (young) daughters.

And I have come accross a teenage girl whose father was doing the, "you are not leaving the house in that, get changed" routine. Teenage daughter wanted to wear a burka.

It is a hard one: to ban something or not - state or domestic.

Does your sister argue against this? Did she know before she married that this would be the case? Did she wear it before? Is he from a country where this is the norm and do they live in a non muslim country? Does she have girls?

Sorry for all the Qs! It's and interesting subject, and very few women would say that they or someone close to them do not have a choice (not from their own conscience and belief, but from another person imposing their ideas). It is a thorny one to ask women face to face if you don't know them very well.

"do not miss out what the hadith state - muslims cannot follow quran without the sunnah or the sunnah without the quran"

Quran also says that it is perfect, complete, fully detailed, and all Muslims need to know. In such a huge document, if covering every strand of hair was so important to God, I'm fairly sure that he would have mentioned it.

Instead, what is mentioned is that Muslims should be modest. Lower your gaze. Cover your bosom. Don't flash your beauty to anyone but your husband.

There is the message, which is reasonable and even admirable. Then there is the fundamentalist literal interpretation which leads to so much misery - women are beautiful objects to be hidden away so only their husband can see even their eyes, because a woman's eyes are also part of her "beauty" etc

You are right about that! (not being 'one' thing). Many cultures, many traditions, many interpretations.

Moomin which country/ies are you speaking of? I only know of Saudi Arabia, specifically makkah and Madinah actually where people travel to for Hajj/Umrah and have seen my sister being asked to cover her hair properly but we were in the mosque at the time.

I agree defuse, my family has friends all over the muslim world and have the option of wearing the hijab or not. Lets take Tunisia for example. The former leader zein al abedine banned hijab from schools/institutions, eventually banning it from all public places. Women had it ripped off their heads by state police, there was no religious freedom for Muslim women or men until after his dictatorship ended. I have a close relative who studied extensively in an Egyptian university, she says hijabis were not treated with respect by the lecturers. Why is this oppression not spoken of also by the western world?

Sorry I meant to say most have the option, as surprisingly many muslim leaders actually dont like the hijab and associate it with Islamization of their people.

I don't really want to out myself here but this is what I have been told first hand by women who live there. Things may be changing now though.

If 'the west' (who/what exactly though?) spoke out against women being discriminated against for wearing any form of veil then they/it would be accused of meddling in areas/places that they have no right to meddle in (culture, politics and religion).

The west as in you, me, human right groups, feminist groups, Gary next door but one - you know what I mean. We who live in the free world who want all women to have the freedom of choice. I feel its rather hypocritical to support and highlight the struggle of only those who are forced to wear the hijab, ignoring the equally difficult plight of those who are not allowed to, or are belittled for wearing the hijab.

When I say 'now' I mean in the near future (not in the last 20 years or so).

I wasn't being awkward - just meaning 'wo/man on the street' or the EU level of debate.

Mimi, men do have dress restrictions but they are not the same as women's and are not as restrictive. Just look at an orthodox Muslim man and woman on a hot day to see this. Man in cool knee length shorts and light thin shirt, woman head to toe in black. I feel conflicted on this one. On one hand each woman should make her own choice but on a cultural level I do dislike the fact that women are asked to make a choice that men are not.

Of course men have restrictions too, my DH cant just take off his beard and put it on the bedside table on a hot night when he feels its bothering him. Majority of practising men grow beards, (there are Muslim countries which restrict this also, I gave Tunisia as an example earlier where men were not allowed to grow beards under Zein al abedines 23 year rule), and many choose to wear thawbs and prayer caps/shawls/turbans. Its hardly a walk in the park for men dress wise, as they busy themselves 'oppressing their women'. Anyway my DH chooses to grow a beard and has faced enough judgey pants wearing people in life to not give a shit anymore. (As I regarding my hijab).

Wearing a beard isn't universally seen as part and parcel. I assume Ipp3 is talking about clothing!

How is supporting a beard any different?

Because a beard is attached to your face (my dad, brother and BiL have all had them at some point) but with regard to clothing, a man can follow the 'rules' and wear identical clothing to the guy standing next to him in the supermarket. A woman wearing a scarf or veil does look different - it is a more obvious outward display of her faith.

Only rarely have I seen a Muslim man in shorts and that's only when they are playing sport ( well represented in Australia's football community). They almost invariably wear long pants. Beard is optional but the fundies adopt one as in Christian/Jewish communities. I do agree that I think a black niqab must be absolutely sweltering in our summers but the Pakistani style salwar kameezes are quite cool and comfortable in summer.

I don't see many men in shorts, only joggers and then you can't really tell what religion they are, can you?

When its hot, I mainly see men in 3/4 length trousers which must be cooler than full length ones. Colour seems to be not an issue either.

I have worn an Indian 2-piece at a charity event last summer (the trousers and knee length tunic). It was beautiful and an Indian friend had it sent over for me. I was sweltering in it though, but then I don't 'do' heat very well.

Not really, whether it is a fist-length beard or a hijab both are obvious outward displays of faith, and a majority of the practising Muslim I know of men wear thawbs and cover the head with a prayer cap as they feel that is the true dress of a Muslim man. There is difference of opinion on this matter though yes.

The beard is considered compulsory by majority of the Muslim scholars, and fist-length. I doubt you will see a man with a big beard and be unsure what religion he follows. Sikh men have big beards too but are identifiable by turbans, a kara etc.

Though if a big bearded man is wearing red, thats probably santa claus