To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

It isn't my accusation. Haven't you read my posts? People who are more in agreement with my side of the debate are accused of colonial feminism.

Yes, my comment was aimed at you because I thought you accused me of pearl-clutching. I don't mind withdrawing it because I see now that you don't think I'm merely "pearl-clutching" (and to be honest I've seen very little, if any, "pearl-clutching" on the thread - perhaps you could point some out) and understand that I've a considered point of view.

Perhaps we are closer in agreement than you think, Rhubarb. Certainly if this was in the flesh I think we could have a heated but entirely amicable debate based on mutual respect. At bottom, we have the interests of women at heart.

Crumbled, it looked as if you were accusing me of colonial feminism.

Yes we probably do have a lot in common, but a gentle reminder that of my general post earlier today, it was you who decided to take that post personally even thought I was not engaging in a debate with you.

Your style is probably a little over-bearing Crumbled and that's where your message gets a bit lost. But yes, anyone who makes a stand against oppression of any kind gets my support

unashamed plug for another wonderful charity working in Nepal

Can I ask a question? Why do some women choose or otherwise to wear a burkha/hijab?

Honest serious question and one I feel I could not ask a Muslim woman in RL as it would seem rude.

Is it to protect her from lusty men or to keep her for her husbands eyes only or has it got absolutely nothing to do with female sexuality at all. Honest genuine question.

I believe it comes from the Koran thebody where it states that a woman is not to be seen in public without a head covering. Although nowhere does it state that a woman should be clothed from head to toe just a small mesh to see out of.

The Koran does contain something along the lines that women can distract men or encourage them to have lustful thoughts.

So women who wear them choose to do so out of respect for their religion. Basically they are doing what the Koran has told them to do.

I see thanks Rhubarb.

The comments above are very true from both you and Crumbled and although we do disagree on points we all basically want to see women world wide free of oppression be, it state sponsored or in the home.

Long long way to go ladies.

:) and hear hear to both !

Very very long way to go. But threads like this are useful as we need to inform people as to what is going on and get them to think about the choices they have made as women and what has influenced those choices. The sad fact in western society is that many women don't even think there is any inequality or oppression. It's easy to see this in countries like Pakistan and India but not so easy to see it here. Yet it does exist.

Glad we all have a common ground we can agree on. It's a lovely way to end the debate

Great links Rhubarb. Yes I agree, it is. Vive la revolution.

Totally agree and yes thanks for the links rhubarb.

Hey, if I can help raise the funds of vital charities like these then that ain't bad. Both the Malala Fund and 3 Angels Nepal are grass-root charities which means that your donations go directly towards providing a future and safe haven for girls and not on administrative or overhead fees.

Feel free to spread the word!

MrsDeVere

I didn't word myself well in that post about in which i mentioned de Menzes. It was simplistic.

I didn't mean to imply that it was normal,ok or not race related that he was shot.

I meant,and failed to actually say, that his death would be relevant and frightening in a, could potentially happen to me too way, to a darker skinned male than a woman.

Because of the way darker skinned/black males are treated and have historically been treated by the police etc.

Can I share another link
tooyoungtowed.org/

The issue of child marriage and child birth at a young age blights the lives of too many girls.

So, am I right we've established that women in other countries wear coverings because they have to, and in this country they choose to? That's what everyone seems to be saying. Also it seems that in this country some of the women who choose to cover have more extreme covering than those in other countries, as pointed out by several people on this thread who have lived and worked abroad, which begs the question what are they trying to prove?

Anyway, I have a question about women in other countries who are forced to cover, and have lived lives of submission where they have had no rights or freedoms. Would they wish the situation to be different for their daughters? If they were suddenly told that they could treat their sons and daughters equally do you think they would be glad? If that was so, and their daughters then wanted to 'be like mummy' perhaps they would have quite a few good reasons for discouraging them rather than encouraging them. I wonder what they would then think about women in a country where women are equal in the eyes of the law still covering their five year old girls.

no pixel, what they are saying is that women can choose what to wear, so long as it is not the hijab or niqab - as some posters on here would like to oppress women into not making a free choice to wearing the hijab because they feel it is oppressive.

hope that clarifies

No they aren't defuse, you made that up.

Pixel: some women in this country choose to wear it, some are no doubt forced.

Otherwise I totally agree with your post. It's like there's some kind of point to prove. Sometimes it looks less like a religious gesture and more like a rebellious gesture.

Oh poo. I typed out a rambling question then the machine crashed.

Short version... As a British Muslim woman, if you agree that as a woman you should have the right to choose when and if, and to what extent you will cover your head and body (whether you do or not) - do you also feel that women in countries where there is a currently legal requirement (and where women are persecuted if they don't) should also have this right?

I've asked muslim friends (from such places) and only one has said 'no not really - the rulers have been voted in or are popular'.

"So women who wear them (burqa & hijab) choose to do so out of respect for their religion. Basically they are doing what the Koran has told them to do"

NO!

Quran has a very short passage in which it tells women to cover their bosoms with their "khimar", which loosely means "covering". The emphasis here seems to be covering the bosom, not the head. The fundamentalists (i.e. those who strictly adhere to a literal interpretation) take this to mean that head has to be covered, but a large portion of Muslims don't.

As for burqa, there is nothing in the Quran that say the face needs to be covered. Quran does not tell Muslim to cover their faces and therefore women wearing the burqa are not doing what Quran has told them to do at all.

It is a case of competitive sucking up to God worship. "He said he wants us to cover our bosoms, but it looks like He wants head covered, too. I can do better - I'll cover up my face, too, so He loves me bestest."

Yes, Cote, Muslim women are stupid and don't know their own religion.

Unlike you, who despite having the concept of "hadith" and "sunnah" explained to you umpteen times, still doesn't grasp their importance to Muslims.

As I understand it, it's the choice of the young woman whether or not to wear it when she reaches the age of puberty. I myself am a Muslim woman, I have never worn any head covering and my mother, who is the only woman chief trustee of a mosque, never encouraged me to and doesn't even wear one to the mosque (just a shawl or pashmina loosely). I don't believe it's a requirement.

crumbled: so now women in hijab are oppressed rebels - make your mind up!

cote, do not miss out what the hadith state - muslims cannot follow quran without the sunnah or the sunnah without the quran. For example: quran tells muslims to pray - hadith tells us how to pray.

Even you know that Allah loves those 'bestest' who have taqwa.

And to achieve such level of taqwa we need the Quran AND sunnah.

Muslim men also have clothing restrictions don't they? They are supposed to only wear long pants, their shirts cannot be of mixed fibers etc. I do think there is some pressure to wear one though. The other day I was at a fun park with my children. There was a young Muslim girl with a brightly coloured hijab there who got on a ride with my daughter. They sat together as it was quite a scary ride. Afterwards, this girl and her little brother got into the same line for another ride as me and my son. My son started chatting to her brother and we found out that they share exactly the same birthday in the same year. It was odd. I look Middle Eastern due to some Spanish heritage, my kids are half Indian. During the whole exchange she was staring at my head, but not reproachfully, like "why aren't you and your daughter covered up like me?". I looked over just before we got on the ride and their dad was glaring at me, looking reproachfully at my hair the same way. I get a bit worried about this at times.