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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

908 replies

INeedSomeSun · 02/07/2013 09:44

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

OP posts:
THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 11:53

1 in 5 members of Parliament are women.

Did you read the threads on Mumsnet about Jeremy Forrest and Nigella Lawson? There is an awful lot of victim blaming going on. I didn't want to believe it but there it was, in black and white, women telling us that a 15 year old girl who had been groomed since she was 13 was actually leading him astray. Posters telling us that the photos clearly showing dickwad strangling Nigella Lawson were exaggerated and anyway, we didn't know the whole story and it could have been all her fault.

The argument about women in positions of power have been raging since time began. How many judges are women in proportion to the number of men? How many CEOs?

And yes, we may have a system that is better set up to deal with rape but still a lot of women are afraid to report it, they still blame themselves and there are a lot of people who would also blame them.

Oppression takes many forms. One of which is pressure and control. I see that in the UK and if you don't then I'm hardly going to convince you otherwise.

LastTangoInDevonshire · 04/07/2013 12:02

No, I don't 'see it'. I see gender inequality, yes, but I do not see oppression.

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 12:06

Ok, would you do me a favour and go onto the feminist boards with that thought? Would be interesting to hear their views on the topic.

LastTangoInDevonshire · 04/07/2013 12:10

No, not interested in 'feminism'. We were discussing oppression.

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 12:17

Is oppression of women not linked to feminism then? I do apologise, I thought that the movement of one was to eliminate the other.

I see no further point in this discussion.

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 12:19

Definition of oppression by Oxford English Dictionary (highlights my own)
noun
[mass noun]

prolonged cruel or <strong>unjust</strong> treatment or exercise of authority:a region shattered by oppression and killing
the state of being subject to oppressive treatment:a response to collective poverty and oppression
<strong>mental pressure</strong> or distress:Beatrice?s mood had initially been alarm and a sense of oppression
CoteDAzur · 04/07/2013 12:33

There are quite a few Muslim women who call themselves feminists around here. Informed, free, Western-born & educated women who choose to convert to Islam and cover themselves up head to toe.

Spend a few minutes chatting to them about their choices and you will see that feminism has no hope of saving them from gender inequality re headscarves & veils.

CoteDAzur · 04/07/2013 12:35

And anyway, I thought one of the reasons we have a Feminism topic is so that these threads don't get hijacked into talking about feminism and people don't have to talk about it if they don't want to.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 12:37

Rhubarb I do hope you aren't suggesting that until all gender inequality is removed from "western society" one is not allowed to have an opinion on the oppression of women elsewhere? Or are you simply suggesting that in order to condemn oppression of women elsewhere we must condemn gender inequality in western society? I condemn it. Am I now allowed to express my view on oppression of women elsewhere? You earlier urged us to "take a positive stand" - how exactly? explain how, if I am not allowed to do so because gender inequality still exists in "western society". And you urged us to "criticise the society". But it seems we are not allowed to, because to do so is described as "pearl-clutching" (in a rather patronising and dismissive way, I might say).

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 12:39

These are some of the self-contradictions and illogicalities not just in your posts but in many other posts on this thread. Cote D'Azur, that is a good post.

LastTangoInDevonshire · 04/07/2013 12:43

Well said CoteDAzur.

thebody · 04/07/2013 12:50

Wearing makeup and heels is a choice the same as to not wear makeup and flats.

You see women in the UK in both camps. No one bothered who does and who doesn't.

I have 2 boys and 2 girls and excuse me but they ALL had educational toys, they were dressed in all colours.

I do not and never have felt oppressed.

I accept some women wish to wear material that covers them but I simply don't believe or accept that that's the case for all Muslim women.

In answer to another poster yes I am sorry I do have a low opinion of countries that have horrific rape stats, that treat women as dirt and force them to cover up and deny them equal rights.

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 13:00

"Or are you simply suggesting that in order to condemn oppression of women elsewhere we must condemn gender inequality in western society?" Yes

Self contradictions and illogicalities? How pleasant of you to say so, and this being posted just after you accused me of being patronising and dismissive. You see faults in others but you fail to see them in yourself.

What to do? Be aware. Question your own society. Open your eyes. Join the Mumsnet campaign against the sexualistion of children. Speak out and don't ever be quiet.

If you are more focused on other countries such as Pakistan then there are plenty of charities you can get involved in.

And yes, pearl-clutching because whilst so many people have such big opinions on this thread, so far it has achieved nothing.

I am more of a campaigning person myself.

Doobiedoobedoobie · 04/07/2013 13:02

CrumbledWalnuts you say;

But it is not (in my opinion) enough to say I'm not oppressed, I'm not oppressing anyone. In the same way that everyone in the separated communities in the Troubles had a responsibility to reject the violence and the symbols of violence, (and not enough to say it's nothing to do with me), in the same way everyone in the Catholic church has a responsibility to reject and take a stand against abuse, its concealment, its facilitation (and not to say it's nothing to do with me) every member of a community with customs which facilitate, encourage and validate gender inequality and oppression of women, have a responsibility to reject that. It cannot be done by people like me. All I can do is express the view.

What, in real terms, woud you have me do, as a muslim woman?
That's a genuine question as you seem to be saying it a lot to posters, even ones who are saying that they of course, do condemn the oppression and violence that is happening to women over the world. Not just muslim women by any means I should add, but women from all walks of life.

You have stated that its not enough for me to openly say I abhor these practices, I hate the violence and hatred that occurs in the name of my religion. So. What can I do that you think you are not able to do?

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 13:03

thebody just because YOU do not feel oppressed, just because YOU have not been subject to gender inequality; passed over for promotion; had comments on your appearance; had stereotypical comments aimed at you; been the subject of misogynistic abuse, etc does not mean that it therefore does not happen.

I have not been raped. But I know that rape happens.

I would oppose the oppression of women in all forms, in this country and in others.

AddictedToCoffee · 04/07/2013 13:06

I can't believd this is STILL going on? I'd like to re-iterate the point i made before....has anyone seen the OP return to the thread with more info or is this someone who is probably shit stirring.

The thread was about a 5 year old girl and has moved on to every other subject under the sun!!! For those whoactually have GENUINE questions on Islam, there are many other ways to get answers instead of hijacking a thread, unless the whole point is to argue!

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 13:13

Rhubarb: I have pointed out the self contradiction. You told me to criticise and take a stand, and then told me I was pearl clutching by criticising and taking the only stand I can without being accused of colonial feminism. Which is it? Are you accusing me of "unpleasant" by pointing out the self-contradiction? Isn't that what debate is about? Am I just supposed to be "pleasant" and agree with you?

Doobie: I think criticism should be voiced of covering by people from inside the Muslim community, and I think it should be acknowledged that it represents and validates oppression. Can I say: I think your open abhorrence of the practices does a lot, and the fact that you don't tried to justify them on the grounds that there is gender inequality in western society, and I admire your vocal and open abhorrence.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 13:14

"I would oppose the oppression of women in all forms, in this country and in others."
So do I Rhubarb: but apparently I am pearl clutching and you are not. How does that work?

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 13:15

"If you are more focused on other countries such as Pakistan then there are plenty of charities you can get involved in."

Colonial feminism?

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 13:18

Interesting Crumbled that you took it upon yourself to think that the pearl clutching comment was aimed at you. That is not the first time you have taken one of my posts personally. FWIW that post was not meant for you individually, it was a general post aimed at the posters who were taking professional offence but without a good reason.

It seems that you like to dominate debate Crumbled and you do that by twisting meanings and taking personal offence where none was intended.

How can the general opposition of forms of female oppression be construed as clutching at pearls? You have selected one sentence to justify your personal judgement but ignored many other sentences which have actually encouraged posters to take action.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 13:28

I'm glad you don't accuse me of pearl-clutching. Excuse me - I thought it was directed at me.

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 13:33

No. It wasn't.

But your comment was.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/07/2013 13:34

My comment was what?

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 13:45

Aimed at me? "but apparently I am pearl clutching and you are not. How does that work?"

Do you know the definition of colonial feminism? It was first coined by Prof Leila Khaled and is the practice of feigning concern for women in order to advance colonial interests.

I'd be interested to know how you would justify that accusation in relation to my post which suggests that women could support Pakistani charities that help give girls an education. Do you think I wish to lead a UK invasion of Pakistan?

THERhubarb · 04/07/2013 13:49

If everytime we support charities which work overseas, we are accused of colonial feminism then who would do so?

This is what Prof Khaled meant: ?Colonial Feminism,? as Khaled further notes, often has an ironic twist. Those very same people who champion feminism in colonized lands are usually noted misogynists who oppose the emancipation of women in their countries."

As you can see from my posts, I am also concerned about the attitudes towards women in this country and I am far from misogynistic.

If you are to shoot off accusations please do take a moment to consider their true meanings and the context.