To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

Do you think that radicalisation only happens among immigrant Muslims? If it happens among British Muslims, do you therefore think that radicalisation is part of British culture?

If radicalisation is part of British culture and "wider western society" - why then would Lord Ahmad say there is a need for immigrants to integrate? Why, there'd be no need at all.

Lord Ahmad is making the point that radicalism and extremism are not part of wider western society and Muslims need to take a stand against it - a stand he thinks can be achieved by greater integration.

How do you expect your average Muslim to fight terrorism or 'take a stand'??

As to 'integration'....British Muslims are part of British society...there is no 'assimilation' to be done

And integration by Immigrants?...depends what that involves...its a pretty broad blanket statement. And when people like you are calling for 'integration' then it is usually a completely unreasonable expectation.

What is 'the wider western society'?

By not denying it would be a start, not denying its roots, not pretending it has nothing to do with Islam.

We cross posted - perhaps you'd like to read my post.

Do you acknowledge radicalisation in the UK? Do you think the people who are doing the radicalising, and the people who are being radicalised, are an integrated part of wider western society?

Don't you think it would be a good thing if they were?

Crumbled - your statement is quite unclear. I am not sure i completely understand. But if you are saying that muslims are giving themselves a bad name and why is it ok for them to commit terrorist atrocities but unacceptable for non-muslims to say that islam condones terrorism - then no, i do not accept that.

I do not associate terrorist activiies with islam - nor do i accept anyone else making such ill-informed assumptions that association in this case means causation.

Boomba do you honestly not know what is meant by the wider western society?

I don't understand this

But if you are saying that muslims are giving themselves a bad name and why is it ok for them to commit terrorist atrocities but unacceptable for non-muslims to say that islam condones terrorism - then no, i do not accept that.

from beginning to end.

there is no 'wider western society'

you mean non-muslim society? you dividing people into Muslims and non-Muslims as 2 'societies'?

I have come across 2 lots of terrorism in my long lifetime - the first was years and years of bombing by the IRA, and now terrorists who are mainly Muslims. And, yes, as soon as I hear 'terrorist' I think Muslim - I don't think "them damned Cornish Piskies are at it again"!

Is there really not Boomba. Who knew. Goodnight.

OP YANBU for not liking a child wearing hijab, everyone is free to like/dislike things, I for example can't stand don't like babies wearing hairbands, but that's another thread.

It seems there are a lot of in the closet DM readers, all this hand wringing and pearl clutching at the thought of these little children HAVING to wear it, did anyone actually think that some of these children might WANT to wear it? In the same way that little Tarquin might want to wear a waistcoat because Daddy does?

My nine year old daughter decided last year that she was going to wear it (after vowing that she would NEVER in her life put it on!) and I have respected her wish, however there is no need for her to wear it, if she took it off tomorrow it wouldn't be an issue. I don't think anyone is thinking a child is sexually attractive, IME it is a cultural practice to put it on young girls. I was in a predominately muslim area last year and was really shocked that even babies were wearing it, I can assure you that this doesn't happen in the ME at all, people would be staring at a five year old wearing a hijab let alone a baby! I have seen Somali's and Malays only who do this, there is nothing religious in it at all, but a cultural preference.

Tango - yes and it was the responsibility of the Catholic and Protestant Churches to reject the terrorists over and over again, loudly, vociferously and without prompting - certainly not grudgingly and hesitantly - and that goes for the leaders and the community members. And if they didn't they were certainly in my opinion guilty of collusion.

do you go to EDL meetings crumbled and try and integrate them into society? Ever been to a Neo-Nazi conference or even a BNP rally and made a stand?

define 'wider western society'...in fact that deserves its very own thread

Grow up Boomba. You are just terrified by the question about radicalisation so you are lashing out, and I think you just admitted you lost the argument.

As you are wondering about "wider western society" why don't you ask Lord Ahmad, a Muslim who seems to think it means something important.

I am not 'lashing out' at all.

I am asking you to explain this 'wider western society's that you think Muslims (?) or immigrants should integrate into? And also what you think 'integration' consists of

I am asking as well, if you have taken a stand against extremism, in the same way you feel all Muslims are obligated to do, or be seen as condoning terrorism?

crescent

de Menzes was shot because he was behaving suspiciously and failed to stop when asked.

Not really relevant to you is it.

I don't get what crumpled is trying to say. Many muslim leaders spoke out against the muslim terrorists. Most muslims ARE integrated as Boomba says. The ones who are not - the ones stirring up hate are the minority. Just like the BNP, EDL are the minority stirring up hate against a section of OUR society. Are they also not integrated then? Valid points being made by Boomba as far as I can see rather then lashing out!

A lot of people stand against extremism. If there were extremists in the congregation of a Christian Church I am sure the remainder of the congregation would do something about it. That is why it is not understood why the Mosque Imams etc. allow it to continue - for surely they are aware who is veering off the path as much as MI5 are?

And as for 'wider society' perhaps people mean integration.

50 years ago I took the train to school every day, and I passed the Shah Jahan Mosque (the first mosque in England). I accepted it for what it was - a place of worship by people who were not like me and did not go out of their way to have a high profile and lived within the community. In other words, integrated.

de Menezes was shot because he was wrongly identified

He was one of those brown people, could be north African one of those Muslims and we were in a state of high alert thankfully our police do not carry guns

I remember how the Irish were targeted in the 80's and it has happened again with Muslims

So along comes some lord who allegedly speaks for all muslims and tells them to assimilate into wider western society. Anybody who asks of me to assimiate has lost my support.

From my perspective (poor, lower middle-class, from a rural area originally as a small kid), the 'wider western society' has been waging war on us for a long time. I grew up with kids whose extended families had been specifically targeted by military dictatorships in the past. This was all in Europe, it had nothing to do with Muslims. We lost generations of men (and women through grief) in our family to the world wars and all the little ones in between. It was very difficult for us to get a good education and what we did get apparently wasn't/isn't good enough to get us out of this situation. Those who waged war on us and with us, frustrated with their inability to secure generations of dirt cheap labour and 'economic growth', then started to import the educated immigrants they needed without having to go to the expense of educating them. As usual, they started to feel nervous about the effects of their policies ( it sucks being poor and we gave up breeding in response) and their solution is to get the poor to fight each other off all over again. We know, for a fact due to past experience, that should we make the sacrifice of lives to rid the Western world of whomever they perceive to be a threat to their interests, we will be left poor, desperate and laughed at again.

The 'oppression' of a headscarf has nothing on these guys.

The problem with issues such as these is that it inevitably turns into a rather arid debate on what is or isn't proper Muslim practice; the implication being that whether wearing a hijab is or is not proper is a matter for knowlegeable in Muslim jurisprudence to decide. This cannot be right. It is quite proper for anyone to criticise putting kids in hijabs etc from their own cultural perspective.

I myself don't like it. A Muslim friend of mine defended it on the basis that "if you leave meat out, the flies land on it". With arguments like that, no counter-arguments are needed. Either wearing hijabs is an insult to men, suggesting they cannot control their urges, or alternatively, it indicates that a Muslim woman is the property of men, because they are not allowed to unveil before any man except their husband or family.

Horrid.

That said, I don't see the justification for a ban. If it is not coercive, then it is for the individual to decide. If it is - then we know that coercion is taking place and if necessary the authorities can get involved.

And in response to defuse I do not see that criticising a cultural practice of some Muslims needs to imply that Muslims must asimilate.