To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

You cannot ban it unless you want to ban orthodox Jewish women from wearing wigs (for the same reasons) and men wearing kippahs. Ban Hindu women from wearing bindis and elderly Spanish women from wearing a headscarf to church on Sundays. Ban crucifixes and Magen David's. Ban the silver bangles and turbans worn by Sikh men. I think people should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want unless it's a situation where they need to be readily identified by their face.

Agree.

I particularly don't like the practice, particularly the veiling of young children, for the reasons given above. But it seems to me that advocates of banning it say it is symptomatic of something abusive. Fine. Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

"You cannot ban it unless you want to ban orthodox Jewish women from wearing wigs"

You can easily ban wigs from preschool, if they are not against regulations already. You can also easily ban hijabs from preschool.

Remember that the thread is about small children, not adults who can make their own decisions about whatever silliness floats their boats.

Back to the original op.

Yes I see any girl/ woman in a hijab or a burkah as oppressed.

Sorry but I do.

This isn't about any religious teachings it comes from men here in earth.

Women's bodies are not bad or evil or a temptation to men, they are beautiful. Why swathe half of the population of any country in black.

I know some women choose to do this and of course that's their right just like its others rights to wear arse skimming skirts and crop tops and not be harassed in the street.

However as someone up thread commented her Muslim friend said' if you don't cover meat flies land in it'

Disgusting comment isn't it and one which I wonder how many Muslim men agree with?

I think the OP was actually about a 5yr old girl wearing a hijab; not hijabs and other coverings on women in general theBody - many of us commented that girls generally don't wear hijab until puberty.

This debate wasn't about the rights and wrongs of hijab per se.

No agree but this thread has been going all week and we have widened the debate as often happens.
Have you read the whole thread?

MrsDeVere, is it known what Juan de Menezes had been working on at the time of his death? Maybe it had more to do with him being an electrician doing casual contract work than with his ethnicity. He didn't look stereotypically Middle Eastern either . That story has so many holes in it I refuse to believe it was a case of mistaken identity. They were supposedly targeting a man who is north African in appearance.

"That man was slaughtered on a normal day in a London tube station. He didn't do anything wrong apart from show fear. He would NOT have been shot if he were a white man."

Mrs DV for some reason Menenez is in the conversation. I think now would be a good time to bring in Drummer Rigby and radicalisation, if we are discussing people killed for doing nothing wrong. Of whatever colour.

"But it seems to me that advocates of banning it say it is symptomatic of something abusive. Fine. Treat the cause, not the symptoms."

What cause, and treat it how?

Crumbled
If you asked my DH he would tell you both men were murdered.

Why is it on mumsnet that any criticism of culture or religion( except Christian) brings out the daily mail pearl clutching comments?

Are you actually afraid to debate?

Is that your closing down fall back position?

Sorry posted to soon
In other words there is no valid justification for either of those men having their lives ended by another.

Chaz: how nice for your husband.

Thebody: I think it must be: look how quickly criticism of a covered 5-year-old is branded as "racism", a common tactic for trying to shut people up.

Did anyone catch the BBC documentary 'Shot for Going to School'?

Disturbing documentary but the most upsetting was the YouTube footage of a 17 year old girl being held down by men and beaten because they suspected she had spoken to a married man. Note, the married man is not to blame - she is. There was a crowd of men watching as she was held down and whipped on her back as she screamed and cried. One man even stepped forward out of the crowd to help pin her down because she was struggling.

Those are the actions of the Taliban. Extreme Islamists who blow up girls schools, who shoot schoolgirls and their teachers. They would deny children an education. They would separate boys from girls and they would have all women hidden away out of view.

Those people are far removed from ordinary Muslims. The programme also showed brave male teachers who stood up to them. One man who, at his own expense, had set up an outside school for the poor children (boys and girls) of the city who could not afford an education. These are the ordinary Muslims.

Just like not every catholic is an IRA sympathiser. At the height of the troubles Northern Ireland was also a dangerous place, where you could be shot for being either a Protestant or a catholic. Anyone who spoke out against them would be in fear of their lives. But those extremist actions were not a true reflection of every Irish catholic.

I could also go on about the Italian Mafia, the Chinese Triads and so on. Religion doesn't always come into play. It's about power and control.

I see no reason why a little girl cannot wear a headscarf if she wants to. I would much prefer that than to see a little girl in a very short skirt with a tight t-shirt on which reads 'Sexy Babe'. As for parents forcing things onto their children - that happens the world over. In the US some parents dress their kids up as grotesque Barbie doll type figures to parade around in a Pageant. We force our kids to wear school uniforms every single day. Some boys have even rebelled because they aren't allowed to wear shorts, not even in hot weather.

You have to put all of these things into perspective. If you feel that shocked and upset by a small girl in a headscarf then I suggest you question you own attitudes.

And if anyone wants to make a difference may I suggest a donation to the Malala Fund which provides a safe place for around 40 girls in Pakistan who would otherwise not have an education, to go to school.

If you want to stop extremism then you have to make a positive stand and not just clutch at your pearls.

The murder in Woolwich has more to do with this thread than the killing of Menenz Mrs DV.

The Rhubarb: I'm not quite sure what your point is. Do you think covering women and girls in one country is completely unrelated to covering in another country? Surely you substantiate the point that covering women and small girls represents exactly the kind of gender equality, suppression and submission which you talk about? Why do you think someone like me, for example, doesn't like covering and in the case of primary school, would like to see it banned ? Do you honestly think it's because I don't like a little excess fabric ? I've said over again it's because of the kind of inequality at its root cause.

Perhaps your post wasn't directed at people like me, because if it was I don't understand it.

Crumbled
You don't want to listen to anyone's point of view do you? People tell you what they think as Muslims or the experiences of Muslims they know and you completely dismiss it. You are as closed to debate as some of the people you criticise.

And what do you mean, Rhubarb, by taking a positive stand? All this urging to take a stand, tackle the root cause. I'm sorry but there's been a lot of criticism on this thread of what has been called "colonial feminism". Criticism of "outsiders" for daring even to have an opinion let alone trying to force it on members of a community. And then these glib phrases are thrown out - don't criticise covering women, take a stand, tackle the root cause. What, you mean heading off to Muslim community centres and engaging in a bit of colonial feminism? Actually

There is very little, almost nothing I can do except have an opinion and express it. I would no more go to a Somali community centre and start spouting off than I would go to an BNP meeting (I suppose slightly more likely to go to a BNP meeting and tell them not to be racists) but I wouldn't do either - what's the point - there is no point. This is my view, and all I can do is express it. Though yes Rhubarb that is a jolly good link for giving money. The people who can really do things, really set a different example, are women inside that community. And if this thread is anything to go by, that is not going to happen any time soon.

Chaz: quite wrong, I have written some quite long posts which I think you haven't read, which assess various points of view and set them against each other and look into them properly. In fact quite a few of my posts ask for further explanation, because of certain self-contradictions and illogicalities, but those explanations never seem to come - I'm just told I have to "change my attitude".

Crumbled, I have no intention of joining in your little debate. I would certainly not construct a long post aimed only at a single poster.

If you do not understand my posts then they have failed entirely to make their point with you and no amount of explaining on my part would do so either. You have made up your mind on this issue, you refuse to see the bigger picture, you refuse to look at comparisons you just want to have the biggest opinion on the thread.

I am not about to be drawn into your arguments.

I don't understand them because people say they don't like the principle of covering women and girls because of the terrible oppression, suffering and submission it represents for women who are not fortunate enough to have a choice. You then say - lno you're wrong, you need to think about the women not fortunate enough to have a choice. Eh? That's exactly what some of us have been doing. I can see you don't want to debate with me, otherwise you wouild have read things I've written.

Crumbled

We will have to agree to disagree. You have nitpicked and patronised (e.g. your previous comment to me). You ignored the voices of the women who are in the community who are far more aware of what needs to be done than you are. I see my DH's nieces in North Africa going to University and getting jobs where their mothers would have seen being a SAHM as the only option. There are many places where changes are happening but you have decided that you know better. How many women in the muslim community do you actually know. A lot of the ones I know are well educated doctors, IT specialists, linguists but in your view of the world they are all oppressed and submissive because they wear a headscarf.

You are right that you won't make many changes for these women because you don't even respect them.

How is it nit-picking to say what do you mean, take a stand - when Muslim women have already complained about "colonial feminism"?

in your view of the world they are all oppressed and submissive because they wear a headscarf.

Well I did say you hadn't read my posts and there's the proof.