To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab

[INeedSomeSun]

Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.

Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.

I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.

At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.

Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad

Defuse, I have utter respect for your choices to wear what you like but yes I can't help but see any form of covering as sexist and uninspiring I am afraid. I won't lie just to seem politically correct.

Crumbled walnuts last post summed it all up for me completely really.

Aboutus I suspect you are a shit stirrer, or staying up late on a school night!!!! I hope so anyway otherwise your views are quite frightening.

Pretty shocking thread, from an OP who is probably not really genuine claiming she saw a child turn up to school in a headscarf once and now assumes with no evidence whatsoever said child will not do PE and will forever be forced to wear a hijab!

To women should not be allowed to wear hijab as it's a symbol of opression in the opinion of some on here, who aren't doing anything practical to help the opressed women they are so allegedly concerned about except to try and opress the women who choose to wear a headscarf.

To Muslims neglect their jobs and endanger lives in order to go off to pray during their working hours.

I spend the most time at work actually working, my colleagues are the ones who wonder around chatting, taking smoking breaks, getting arsey when I've met deadlines several days ahead of target and they are hard pushed to make the actual deadlines.

All the people who assume Muslims women are opressed, neglectful work shy layabouts, do you know any real muslims in real life, practicing Muslims you've bothered to get to know?

Crumbled, it's not the word of two women against the word of one man, its the word of two women and one man acting as witness to the same thing. The oen man on his own would not be adequate either.

There are also circumstances where the witness of only a woman will suffice not a mans.

It depends on the situation.

I'm curious as to why the OP who says she has many muslim friends did not raise this debate with one of them. Surely between them they could have discussed all the points of view raised here. But no, non racist person with 'many muslim friends' she has chosen to post on a forum. We all know this is controversial subject and will stir up all the bigots OP. I wonder if this was your intention. However, I hope after having posted on here you now feel less 'sad'.

Perhaps next time you could also try engaging your muslim friends so you may have a deeper and better understanding of who they actually are and their way of life.

Wow, just wow.

Who'd have thought that a thread on a Muslim girl wearing a hijab would have caused so much angst on Mumsnet?

Luckily, walnuts and tangos views on hijabs and burquas or Islam, have no bearing on anything

interesting no comments on whatever religion it is where all the women and girls wear a small hankerchief style headscarf perched on top of their hair, why is this less of a bother than muslim garb?

I've seen those handkerchief things and I've no idea if they are a cultural or religious 'requirement'.

Many people here object to the idea that some women are forced to wear the hijab. AFAIK that's not the case with the handkerchiefs.

Also there is no suggestion that they are to preserve modesty or protect women from the uncontrollable lust of men. Which is why the idea of a 5 year old needing to wear a hijab is unpleasant. (not saying that this is the case with this girl by the way, I hope she just wants to look like her Mum).

Also Stepaway I don't know about you but I don't see them very often.

My nan always used to wear a headscarf when out and about as did a lot of women of her generation. They felt it was 'proper' and would never have shown their bare heads.

Now you hardly see any western women wearing them, but it's not that long ago and those idiots from the EDL also had nans who probably also wore them. I predict that soon the future generations of young Muslim women will stop wearing them too.

With regards covering women from head to toe. Is that not what nuns are required to do? Their black coverings and headgarbs are quite like burkhas.

There is a belief among some Christian groups that women should cover their hair when they pray.

1 Corinthians 11:4-16

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head ? it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

7 A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[b] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice ? nor do the churches of God.

Nuns usually wear knee length skirts and the full monty covering is pretty rare. Some monks wear the full long robes though. Onbiously heads not covered.

theres a few in my town jack but yes you are right its not common but I do think its something to do with covering hair as a religious thing. I take your point about some on the thread claiming women are forced into covering in some other religions but many here dispute that as for many its a personal choice and there is plenty of testimony to that from many here too. I guess I was just interested in why other covering was not viewed with suspicion. TheRuhbarb interesting point about Nuns, again why no suspicion there then? its the same issue isn't it

Fully covered nuns didn't used to be rare. So my point is that burkhas will soon also become rare. It's difficult to enforce these things in a western society where everything is questioned and challenged.

Chaz yes you know it's funny. Take Jesus, he first revealed himself to be the son of God to ..... a woman. When he rose from the dead the first person he showed himself to was ..... a woman. He treated women equally, spoke to them at length about his teachings and about scripture, even told them to stop cleaning so they could debate with him. He questioned many of the Jewish traditions and went against many of the teachings, which is what made him so unpopular amongst the temple leaders and priests and which is what eventually led to his death.

There is evidence that plenty of women were also his disciples and that there are large texts that were not included in the NT because they were deemed as "irrelevant".

The bits about women - did they come from God or Jesus? No, they came from male so-called prophets like Muhammed and Saint Paul.

Man twisted religion to further oppress women.

No StepAway nuns aren't usually subject to abuse on the streets, neither would an old lady be who wore a headscarf.

Nuns are generally hidden away in convents, told they cannot marry but must devote their lives to serving the Lord. Jesus never ever asked any woman to do this.

Most nuns that I know are still required to wear head coverings.

"Crumbled, it's not the word of two women against the word of one man, its the word of two women and one man acting as witness to the same thing. "

If a man is one witness, he can only be countered by two women, not one woman. Nice. I'm guessing the Muslim brotherhood hasn't changed that. It's not just an Islamic rule, it's the law in Egypt.

"There is a belief among some Christian groups that women should cover their hair when they pray. "

And? Most women make a different choice - not to be submissive.

"LasTango, no Muslim will take time out in the middle of work to go pray"

I believe a Muslim man in a care home ignored an elderly lady's call because he was praying and was reprimanded for it?

Sure if its a closed order but these are a dying breed. Most nuns work in the community these days. They work with anyone who needs it. I don't know huge amounts of nuns/monks but I do interact with some and clergy in my job.

Yes, they do get some dog's abuse but generally if they are out and about in non-christian countries. This wasn't always as bad either - some of my family attended schools run by monks and nuns in a ME country in the 1960s. They don't have these there anymore and certainly these kids wouldn't be alowed attend them if they did today.

Its telling that it's the women who become targets on the street.

here

Whilst I get your point about Nuns - you will never see a 5 year old nun.

Depending on who you ask, the hijab is obligatory for all women who want to be a good muslim.

Being a nun is a vocation that adult women enter into voluntarily. There is no suggestion it is the only way to be a good Christian.

Crumbled
My DH used to drive a bus, he never felt the need to stop the bus to say his prayers nor do any of his friends.

One muslim bloke making a mistake is hardly a reflection of the general point that muslims do not stop work to pray if they are in the middle of a job.

Christianity - a fair number of women do cover their hair for example in the Orthodox Churches I think head covering in church is still common. (I am a Christian although lapsed)

Crumbled, anyone can pick out individuals who are arseholes, no matter what religion they belong to. I could tell of hundreds (probably thousands) of catholic priests who abused children. Ditto with scout leaders.

An arsehole is an arsehole.

I think if you go to Spain or Italy the older ladies will slip some scarf over their heads in chapel. I haven't ever seen it here.