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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

999 replies

Nickabilla · 30/06/2013 21:14

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/07/2013 22:32

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/07/2013 22:38

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Messandmayhem · 03/07/2013 22:50

I'm my experience from a very working class background, gender roles are more rigid and the expectation is that women will keep house and take care of the children. Many men are utterly uninvolved in their kid lives despite living with them. It's the women's job to take care of them, feed them, play with them etc. Even if the woman is in full time work all domestic duties often fall to them. A man who does the dishes or who watches the kids for his wife is doing her a favour. These aren't horrible men by the way, often perfectly decent, lovely blokes. But it's just not the done thing. I have also seen a lot of tolerance of domestic abuse, and it's generally not that hidden. It's just accepted by the woman and by the community in general.
Women are generally under pressure to keep the family together, despite lack of money, sometimes abuse, the pressure of all the domestic duties and the need to work. The men may have the pressure of providing the lions share of the income but other than that they quite often seem to do very little else.
That is obviously not universal but it is, in my experience, fairly standard and normal. I don't know if middle and upper class households have such clear and different gender roles?
This is a bit off from the general topic perhaps, but some posters did mention feminism being fairly middle class and mentioned working class women and men and so I thought I'd share my thoughts.

Messandmayhem · 03/07/2013 22:51

buffy yes, certainly I know of a family who were put in serious danger by attacks on their home after talking to the police about a serious incident involving a local young man.

Messandmayhem · 03/07/2013 22:53

Bizarrely that family got less hassle when a member of their family was found guilty of a murder than when they spoke to the police about this other serious crime.

Spero · 03/07/2013 23:27

I constantly get the accusation thrown at me that the family legal system is anti men. It is true that the majority of lawyers, social workers, guardians are women. The only consistent male presence is the judge and I guess within the next generation that won't be true anymore.

I would be interested in some research into attitudes and outcomes, but I guess this would be very difficult to organise without compromising confidentiality.

But it is strange that an entire legal and social work system has grown to be colonised almost exclusively by women. This is saying something about gender roles, I am just not sure what.

Technotropic · 03/07/2013 23:40

But it is strange that an entire legal and social work system has grown to be colonised almost exclusively by women. This is saying something about gender roles, I am just not sure what.

Perhaps that the idea of 'the patriarchy' doesn't really hold much water in present day?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/07/2013 23:45

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Wuldric · 03/07/2013 23:48

I have heard this before

But never from a woman I ever wanted to know

Totally twattish behaviour from utterly unintelligent women IME. Women can be utterly unintelligent and stoopid. Goes against the grain to admit it, but they can :)

Spero · 04/07/2013 00:06

Yes, I said the Judge is usually male, but this is unlikely to remain the case within next 10 - 20 years as the pool of judicial candidates will be largely women.

Men don't want to practise in this field.

I think this is a very interesting situation. I was warned not to go into family law as it is female ghetto. Yet the male refusal to bother with such tedious issues as children has left them very vulnerable to their family structures being decided upon almost exclusively by women.

I don't think this is a very healthy state of affairs.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/07/2013 08:00

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Spero · 04/07/2013 08:46

What you say is both articulate and thought provoking.

However, it does also raise alarm bells for me.

This is another reason I am not happy to call myself a feminist as it appears to involve looking at the world through a very specific lense - every problem that women face must be reduced to The Patriarchy and every problem men face is simply brushed aside as not important, or certainly much lesser than the problems faced by women.

And I fundamentally disagree with this.

I wish I could remember and give credit to the poster who said something along lines of no wonder there is this perception of women as weak and oppressed given that feminists strive so hard to push this narrative.

One of my particular concerns is the view on violence taken by feminists - men are always the perpetrators, women always the victims. I can say with absolute certainty that this just isn't true - I have met many women who were violent and goading themselves and who demonstrably (because I proved it in court) lied or exaggerated about male violence.

We will soon witness a very chilling example of the law of unintended consequences - the gov has ended public funding for a large amount of family cases UNLESS violence is involved. This will inevitably lead to further lies and exaggeration about violence to secure legal help. Men will be further demonised.

I can thank this thread for helping me articulate why I don't want to be a feminist. I don't want to see the world though a lense that involves using a lot of energy to determine how every problem women faces due to their oppression from men. I think a lot of that is true, but there are plenty of examples I can see where insistence on this narrative does more harm than good.

And the most poignant example will always remain the boys in care, who nobody wants.

yamsareyammy · 04/07/2013 08:54

Spero, your latest few posts are thought proving, in more ways than you realise.

I used to foster briefly. We fostered an older boy.
DH wants to do it again. This time it is me that is not so keen.
You are pushing me towards it once more.

SigmundFraude · 04/07/2013 08:55

This was sent to me about 3 weeks ago regarding family law courts. It's worth a watch.

Spero · 04/07/2013 09:02

Please yams, do think about it. You could do so much good. These boys grow up into miserable and angry men and they take it out on their children in turn. If you could help turn just one life around that would be amazing. Or even allow them a memory a time when they were wanted and cared for. I know it's naive to think you can solve everything with kindness but it has for to be worth a try.

Spero · 04/07/2013 09:04

I tried link but it just takes me to a general menu

Technotropic · 04/07/2013 09:06

Spero That was an interesting post. I know you didn't get on with GirlWritesWhat but this is particularly relevant to what you have just written and think it may strike a chord. IMHO it also goes some way to explain why people are justified in labelling themselves as feminists.

My Beef With Modern Feminism - GirlWritesWhat

Why am I writing this manifesto? It?s simple. I believe that modern feminism (with the aid of its silent partner, chivalry) has done a huge disservice to women that?s a mirror image of the disservice it?s done to men, and that is fostering continued weakness and dependence in women, while placing a hideous and unfair burden on men.

According to modern feminism, all women are the default victims of male dominance?even if only by proxy. We are told non-stop by feminist organizations that we?re afraid, we are oppressed, we are kept down, we are persecuted, we are victimized, and that there is nothing a woman can do on her own to get out from under this enormous, nebulous burden of fear and misogyny that is still an ?epidemic? in our western society. We can only be liberated through things we are given?subsidies, incentives, a leg up, kid-glove handling, uneven application of the law, and hampering men with handicaps the way we do pro-level players in amateur games. Modern feminism casts all men as predators, but in doing so, feminism casts all women as prey. I am not prey.

I?ve always felt that it?s not The Patriarchy, or men in general, who have oppressed women. What has always oppressed them has been their dependence on these systems. At one time, that dependence was enforced by law, social pressures and lack of opportunities, but that isn?t the case anymore and hasn?t been for decades.

But the mindset of feminism continues to be colored with the implication that men act, while women are acted upon. Men must make/take opportunities, while women must be given opportunities. Men must make their own way, while women must be guided and assisted through social programs and legislation designed to help them succeed?because lord only knows, they?d never be able to become scientists or engineers on their own.

And at the same time, men can never be victims of women. Even when women commit heinous crimes against men, the man is still almost universally cast as the villain??She stabbed him? He must have been abusive/cheating/driven her to it.? ?She had an abusive upbringing.? ?She was disadvantaged.?

And men are never allowed to seek help??Your wife beat you up? Stop being a sissy.? ?Make your own way in life, lad, because no one?s going to do it for you.? ?Can?t get a job? Fucking deadbeat.?
Life is pretty sweet for women these days?we have all kinds of career opportunities and earning potential handed to us, an artificially uneven playing field in all the jobs we actually want, daddy government to help us with our financial burdens, and punishments for female criminals that often amount to standing with your nose in a corner for time served, while blame for our behavior is shifted onto The Patriarchy. Men are still expected to buy us dinner, even when they earn less than we do, and if one dares to raise a hand against us, we have the monopoly on DV shelters and programs, and an application of the law that is almost always unbalanced in our favor. We have all the say in reproduction, from our right to abortion to the leeway to decide exactly how and how much the father of our children will be allowed or forced to contribute to their wellbeing. We?ve even seen due process almost completely done away with when it comes to accusations of rape and sexual assault.

Women have been elevated to the status of princesses, and men doomed to be servants and scapegoats. So why aren?t we happy? Why aren?t we satisfied with what we have? Why hasn?t the feminist movement declared ?mission accomplished??

Because women today, under a feminist social structure, still have not attained the elusive prize they long for, and which they can never win by the methods they currently employ. That prize is agency.
Under extremist modern feminism, there can be no female autonomy or agency because though we have freedom and opportunity, there is no corresponding expectation of self-sufficiency, accountability, or responsibility placed on women. And there can be no male autonomy or agency, because for men there is only self-sufficiency, accountability and responsibility, while freedom and opportunity is becoming a thing of the past.

If chivalry infantilized women, feminism does the exact same thing. Only instead of running to tell daddy/Sir Galahad about all those horrible brutes who are so very mean to us, we?re supposed to run to daddy government.

But I have news for modern feminism. Some of us just aren?t that interested in feeling like victims. Being victimized is something that happens to people, and is often completely outside our control. But we DO have a choice as to whether we see ourselves as victims, and choose to live our lives as victims, or not. Modern feminism wants me to feel like a default victim. And I am NOT a victim. Victims are passive. Victims are acted upon. Victims lack agency. That?s not the way I will ever choose to view myself, and it saddens me that so many women have been convinced to see themselves this way.

Feminism is not about female empowerment. It was, at one time, but no more. Empowerment is the ability to stand up for yourself, to take care of yourself, to be active instead of passive.
And there can be no self-empowerment without personal responsibility and accountability. Sometimes that means accepting part?or indeed, all?of the blame when something bad happens. But women are so rarely held accountable for their actions and decisions and burdens to the degree they should be as human beings. If a woman can?t be successful, it is because the business world is sexist. If a woman wakes up after getting black-out drunk at a party full of horny young men to discover she was violated, any hint that perhaps getting black-out drunk at a party full of horny young men is maybe not the smartest decision anyone ever made, means you?re blaming the victim and you?re an awful human being. If a woman takes five years off from the workforce so she can be a stay-at-home mom, and her re-entry into her career is less than spectacular, it?s never because sometimes life comes down to making a choice between something you want and another thing you want more?it?s because government/society doesn?t do enough to help her.

When you constantly point at other factors as being completely at fault?the patriarchy, discrimination, sexism, even sexual predators?what you end up with is a whole group of people who may feel empowered, but they aren?t, and subconsciously they know that they?ve been further disenfranchised on a deeply human level. If you are never held accountable for your decisions, you?re being told that you?re essentially as ineffectual as a child.

Empowerment is about owning your own shit, and that is the basis for agency. Agency is about more than rights and opportunities and freedoms?it?s about personal responsibility and accountability and shouldering your own burdens. Agency is not only about having the power to succeed?it?s about having the power to fail. To be the primary arbiter of your fate.

This is MY life. I am the architect of it. If I fuck it up, it isn?t something that merely ?happened? to me?I was an active participant in the sequence of decisions that led to the fucking-up. I may not live in a vacuum, but I have the power to respond to outside influences, and depending on how I use that power, I will succeed or I will fail. Help is appreciated, but not expected and never, ever required, even if that means the chance of failure will be greater, or I might not be as successful as someone else.

My grandmother was born in 1909 to a family of 8 children, and raised in abject rural poverty. By the time she married, she was the manager of ladies? wear at a large department store. My grandfather worked in construction in the summer and as a rural mail carrier in the winter. They had three children in the first decade of their marriage, during which time, my grandmother took over management of the general store in her town and was eventually offered the position of postmistress. At a time when the glass ceiling was nanometers above the kitchen ceiling, my grandmother, with her grade 8 education, became a respected career woman. My grandmother had agency.

Women today, on the whole, do not have agency?what we have is not patriarchy, but it?s still a system where we?re told we need to be taken care of, and where we eat that line of bullshit as if it?s ice cream. And as long as that?s what modern feminism is about, the movement will never be self-limiting?because as much as we might wish it otherwise, rights and opportunities will always be finite, but there?s no limit to the privilege one can demand. And make no mistake, modern feminism isn?t about women?s rights. It?s about women?s privilege. It may not look like privilege to everyone, but that?s what it is.

That?s not agency, it?s an insult to women like me, and women like my grandmother was?a career woman born in 1909 who made her own opportunities just like any man raised in rural poverty would have had to, and who always, always owned her shit.

There?s no greater empowerment than having earned your own success, on standing on your own feet and shouldering your own burdens, and even accepting your own failures.

This is my shit. I own it.

Spero · 04/07/2013 09:11

Bollocks. Just when I am patting myself on the back for inventing an exciting new personal philosophy, someone else has already articulated it.

Yup. Agree with pretty much all of that.

I always knew this was what I thought but I had never taken time to articulate it and really think it through, which is the real value of threads like this.

SigmundFraude · 04/07/2013 09:13

Karen Woodall works with separated families and is very familiar with the family court process. Her articles that are critical of feminist influence in and out of court are very revealing and shocking. Unfortunately, she has had to have them password protected, I'll let you work out why.

karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/23/parentectomy-the-silent-killer-in-court-2/

Do take some time to look at her other viewable articles. I have a lot of respect for this woman and the work she does.

SigmundFraude · 04/07/2013 09:15

Was it my links that didn't work?

Spero · 04/07/2013 09:16

I am well aware of Karen Woodhall and I don't rate her at all I am afraid.

In my view she is simply an example from the other side of the fence of someone pushing her ideology with no regard for the facts of the case in front of her.

I think she is quite dangerous.

Technotropic · 04/07/2013 09:16

Apologies Spero.

I didn't mean to steal your thunder but FWIW, I thought you were spot on too and have a huge insight from another valuable POV. One that many of us don't see at all.

You still deserve a pat on the back Smile

Spero · 04/07/2013 09:21

I also worked out Archimedes principle on my own and was very proud before discovering I was a few thousand years too late...

I don't want to swop one blinkered ideology for another. Causes of deprivation, misery and abuse are always densely multifaceted. To raise one element up above all others - male oppression, anti men family courts etc etc can do enormous harm.

I have just finished a very long running and tragic case where the father, by giving selective information to various men's rights groups, allowed them to,bolster his false belief that he wasn't abusive, that he wasn't seeing his children because mother had alienated them.

This left him entirely deaf to the clearly articulated reasons of his children about his abuse. They now want nothing to with him.

If he had been encouraged to develop insight as opposed to arguing the case for female villainy, this case might have had much happier ending.

yamsareyammy · 04/07/2013 09:25

I havent got time to read all of the long post by technotropic right now.

But frm what I have read in the first 1/3 of it, that is what I didnt understand about running's[I think it was] post, who claimed that women would be afraid to set up a business in competition with men.
It portrayed women as wimpy frightened creatures.

So now I am quite confused.
Do feminists think women are strong, strong enough in many ways to equal men, or not?

Spero · 04/07/2013 09:30

Yams, that is the central dilemma. I really think for some feminists, they find a value in continuing to portray women as weak. Then you can claim privilege in a world where opportunities are necessarily finite.

Btw every I say of course refers only to western secular societies. I have no doubt that women in Pakistan, Afghanistan etc suffer appallingly from male dominated structures and I would have no quarrel with identify Patriarchy as the evil there. Just not here.