To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

It's an interesting question, spero. I actually consider myself (in general a humanist as well.

But I think that to be a feminist you have to recognise that women are discriminated against purely because of their gender (and many studies, for eg. the CV one do demonstrate that are).

Why not be against and angry about discrimination per se, not simply discrimination that is defined by sex?

yes

Well - being angry about one form of discrimination doesn't prohibit you from being angry about other forms, does it? Just because I call myself a feminist doesn't stop me from also being anti-racist, or anti-disablist.

Yes, women are discriminated against just because they are women. As are black men for being black. As are disabled people for being disabled.

My problem is, even as a woman and disabled I know I sit pretty much at the top of the heap in this society. My earnings are in top 10%. I am educated and articulate.

It just sticks in my throat a bit to sign up to an ideology which revolves around ME examining MY oppression simply because I don't have a penis.

'Women' encompasses such a wide range of humanity and experience. Many women are oppressors of other women - I look at those I know who employ other women on shit wages to look after their home and children.

I just cannot see the justification, in this society at this time for feminism.

I deal professionally with some of the poorest and most disadvantaged people in our community. Their chances of ever escaping their disadvantage is now lower than it has been for about fifty years. So I can't get that excited about female academics not rising sufficiently high in their ranks because they have children.

I'm also an educated woman - and I have a nice life. But I have been victim to male sexual violence regardless of that. My education or naice middle class life couldn't protect me from that and judging from many MN threads, many many women suffer from male sexual violence, regardless of their class or job.

I have also suffered discrimination in the workplace - and seen close female friends go through the same - one was illegally made redundant whilst on maternity leave - she did get legal redress (thank a feminist) and was awarded a pay out - but it didn't make up for the loss of her career. One was consistently awarded lesser pay rises than her male colleagues - same job, same grade (IT), no issues with her performance.

Which is why I don't like the "I'm doing ok so feminism isn't needed' argument. Because even privileged women can suffer from gender discrimination. And there is no excuse for it.

I agree. And I don't accept that discrimination. But it doesn't need the label of feminism to be wrong and to be fought against.

Why not feminism - if it's gender related and women and girls worldwide are being discriminated against purely because of their gender?

You agree with the substance behind it - it's just the name you don't like?

pony and Spero make good points.
It has got me thinking. When men are violent, and hit etc, I would have thought that most of that agression and violence is against other men.
So other men are more vulnerable in that particular respect, than women.

Little old ladies are the ones worried about being out alone at night, statistically the ones in most danger of violence are young men out alone at night.

'You agree with the substance behind it - it's just the name you don't like?'

I think that's exactly it, there are thousands of women living their lives according to feminist principles but rejecting the label because they don't see it as being about those principles.
The question the OP was asking (and where is she BTW?) asks the same thing. Why is this so?

When I made points 1 to 5 yesterday, and points 4 and 5 were presenteeism, I knew there was another "presenteemism" that should have been on that list.
6.presenteeism. If women leave work to have babies, and maybe not return for 5 years, it is not surprising that most of them then fail to get to the top.
A lot of people in the "top" jobs, retire and leave the profession entirely at 50 or 52 or near there? So a woman who starts at 21 after uni, but is physically missing, not present, or only part time present from say 29 to 34, has blown a hole through her career hasnt she - I think feminists massively underestimate this.
These women are therefore missing for 5 out of 30 years, ie 1/6 of the time. And at a crucial stage.

In the link, it doesnt seem to be childless female acedemics that are complaining, it is the ones with children.
So it isnt, I dont think, because they are female. Well yes, it is, but because they have children, not because they are inherently female.
[though off to finish reading, in case there are female childless women who are discussing the problem too].

I live my life according to feminist principles - I started early, having brothers. I reject the label.

exotic.
Yes, my eyes were opened to that on MN.
I was horrified when I then realised that I had been giving keepsafe safety tips to my daughters when they went out, but I barely gave any at all to my then teenage sons.
Thankfully, I had got away with it, but I realised that I had been fortunate, but realised how foolish or ignorant I had been on the matter.

my post was to the 8.07am post.

I think that living it is infinitely more important than naming it.
I know several people who live their lives along perfect Christian guidelines, love, compassion, active engagement, despite being atheists, and do far more good than numerous church attenders who say they are Christians.
If that makes any sense.

yes young men are the highest risk group to be victims of violence. but they are also the group most likely to commit violence.

so the comparisons with women are false.

I don't identify as a feminist. Last time I posted in this topic it was on a thread about pole dancing. I was belittled and told that I enjoyed dancing when I used to do it because I had been indoctrinated into believing I enjoyed it by abusive men (which was bollocks) and that I was delusional and was informed that I was being abused at work (also bollocks)

I accept that some dancers might be forced into the industry by the men in their life or lack of other options but that was not my experience or that of my friends.

I don't think that rejecting another woman's thoughts and experiences because they don't fit with your ideal is empowering to anyone and wouldn't want to identify with a group of women who do this. I've seen it happen time and time again on threads involving stripping or prostitution. I find it bullying and not at all sisterly.

A lot of what is posted in this topic makes little sense to me and does fit in with my life experience.

Of course I believe that women are equal to men and should be paid as such and respected as such. I also accept that human trafficking exists and needs to be stopped and that some men treat women as objects. I still don't wish to identify with feminists. They are, ime, scary as hell and unable to accept views that do not fit with their own

yams Reasons why I dont think there are that many women in top jobs....

yams I have 2 friends and all of us are in our thirties, without children, and who have, by different measures, top jobs:

1. one is a high flying academic
2. one has a v high salary
3. one is a national newspaper journalist

we would all say being a women in a (top) job is harder:

a) one has taken an investment bank to court for sex discrimination
b) one has raised a serious issue of sexism about allocation of roles which the organisation acted on
c) one was a victim of a high profile convicted rapist.

we all agree being a women at work is harder in large ways and small everyday ways.

can I ask what experiences your personal opinions are based on?

I find all academics, male, female or transgender, irritating, jargon ridden and apparently deliberately wishing not to engage with a wider audience.

I think you're about 10 years out of date with your prejudice towards perception of academia, Spero. Have you heard of outreach/impact/public engagement/dissemination? It's a pretty substantial part of academic work nowadays.

(And it's 'rein in', not 'reign in'...)

D0oin encapsulates it perfectly.

I do not agree with discrimination against women, I would have to be pretty weird to find that ok as a) a woman myself b) the mother of a daughter and c) a sentient human being.

But to call myself a feminist means I have to stand shoulder to shoulder with the women whoe have called me an apologist for all sorts of evil, a victim blamer when I suggest we could all examine how we take responsibility for our actions and suggested my dad and my brothers were potential rapists.

So if feminists find it 'annoying' that some women reject their label, I don't think it will take very much to understand why.

faster, thanks for that.
I am beginning to see, from this thread, that maybe some industries are sexist, and some not so much.
Bankers complain, lawyers not.
One I know of seems to actively encourage the women. We shall see if that carries on further up she goes. I think it might. But we shall see, especially if and when she has children. Though the woman I am talking about in that instance, has plans to run her own business in the sector, if she has children. Though again, we shall very much see. And I realise, that option is not open and available to most.

My personal experiences, like you, are based on myself, ,my friends [though they are lower ranking than yours], and all my children that are all working in completely different occupations.

Skyler, thank you so much for your rejection of my experiences and your helpful correction of my spelling. This always makes me so much more receptive and eager to learn from your views.

Sorry. I don't proof read on Internet fora and my iPad has some quirky ideas aout auto correct.

I was in academia for two years, so I will continue to treat my experiences and beliefs as valid for my experience.

If that's ok with you of course.

Have you considered that academia and academic culture might have altered since you left?

yams - I am not totally sure all female lawyers would say they had not experienced discrimination.....

.... I was accidentally sent an email from a global law firm about how they could get rid of Woman X because Woman X did not know that the person making the decision to get rid of her knew she was pregnant. so Woman X would not be able to sue them.

I agree with you about its very personal. also there have been times in my life when I thought we had equality. I think we are all encouraged to accept inequality so its not surprising that we do.

Yes.

And from what I have read and seen, my beliefs remain valid and current.

But hey! Why not try convincing me otherwise by provision of some evidence rather than your own sniping?

Because, believe me, that is not convincing.